Rogue/Ninja Starting Class?

[Dhex]

I seriously doubt that.

It honestly doesn't matter to anyone posting on here really - you're all (so far as I've seen) already lv50 and if you're not through 2.2 story you easily can pass "Through the Maelstrom" by 2.4 and have Ninja introduced in whatever goofy manner you advocate for - it won't hurt your "play-through" narrative.

It will however hurt a new player's narrative.

[whiskeybravo]

If you're done with the storyline it doesn't matter you're not experiencing it for the first time anymore - we're specifically talking about new players.

If you read the book cover to cover the first time - you can go back and read a single chapter and not have it be ruined because you've already got the narrative.

All people are saying here - is that if you get the Ninja chapter before reading the book it's breaking the narrative.

It doesn't seem that difficult to have rogue/ninja "chapters" before knowing the whole story of how rogue/ninja came to Eorzea. I still think Revenant's Toll is a good comparison, as new players don't know how it's changed over time, they only see what it is now. Rogue/Ninja would be similar, you have a storyline like any other class/job, then the culmination of how it came to be at the end. You don't have to tell the full story upfront. Veteran players know, and new players come to find out. Simple.

[JakzChurchill]

I understand what you mean but it in no way means that the R/N storyline cant add to the current narrative in such a way to tie loose ends together. This is not an advanced class/job, YP said the only reason hes adding this class/job in now is because he felt it was missing from the original lineup. otherwise it would wait until an expansion. I'm not disagreeing with the lore arguments only saying that it is possible to have this as a starting class without breaking the game and immersion. If you can't imagine that then thats a lack of creative thinking on your part. Will they have jobs locked behind story and levels? sure, eventually. will this be the first one, I seriously doubt that.

This post pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[Erudain]

Even if they add another teacher for you to become a NIN at lv30, it still wound't solve the plot hole with Thancred/Yugiri fight scene....everyone and their mother were surprised to see Yugiri fight style, so one can logically assume it's the first time they are watching it.

This wouldn't make sense if you were using that fight style since lv30...Y'shtola would had seen it in the Titan arc, Cid & Alphinaud would had seen it in the memory loss/Coerthas arc, and finally every Scion would have seen you when you saved them from Mor Dhona castrum...

[whiskeybravo]

Even if they add another teacher for you to become a NIN at lv30, it still wound't solve the plot hole with Thancred/Yugiri fight scene....everyone and their mother were surprised to see Yugiri fight style, so one can logically assume it's the first time they are watching it.

Just because they are surprised by Yugiri's style it does not mean they have never seen the style before. And besides there are more factors, Yugiri is presented as a normal refugee (albeit, of some royalty), it would have to be surprising to see her jump into action and start kicking butt regardless of her fighting style.

[MageBlack]

It honestly doesn't matter to anyone posting on here really - you're all (so far as I've seen) already lv50 and if you're not through 2.2 story you easily can pass "Through the Maelstrom" by 2.4 and have Ninja introduced in whatever goofy manner you advocate for - it won't hurt your "play-through" narrative.

It will however hurt a new player's narrative.

I know exactly the scene you are talking about. That too is a bone of contention for me and a hurdle that the Devs will need to overcome/address to make it cohesive if they are making this a starting class. Your unwillingness to entertain the idea that it could be possible for them to braid the R/N story into the existing world lore as it has been presented is something you continually ignore. Many ideas on how that could be done have been presented quite a few times in this thread and thats just from random dudes and dudettes who are players. I'm pretty sure that the Ninja and Rogue were in development and planning long before they announced it to us. I also seriously doubt they would have planned all this lore and story at level 50 to tease current players with the new class/job and not taken any of the issues raised into consideration.

Honestly, I'm about 60-40 on which way this will head. I recognize your arguments and those of several other posters here but I also acknowledge things the Devs have said along with their overarching concepts for the game. Two things make me think he wont start gating classes and jobs behind level or story requirements until after the first official expansion and they are:
- Yoshi-P's repeated statement on accessibility to all ranges of player types (those "filthy" casuals)
- Yoshi-P saying he felt this particular class/job was missing from the original lineup and this is why we are seeing it before the expansion.

I know you might want it to be locked away so people have to work for this new job and you might be worried that if newbs can get the class at start that it somehow might be "unfair". But "Lore" can easily be fixed, repaired, or added to with.... more lore! Just because you cant think of any way for it to work does not mean the devs havent. All I'm asking is for you to say that it might be possible for them to make it happen from a starting character perspective, even if you don't think they will.

[Souljacker]

You do realize how much extra work that is to make 2 separate and distinct jobs instead of one base class & the job specialization, right?

Here's my take on this statement - yes it would be some work. But that is what they are paid to do, right? They are making money to make an ongoing, engaging, and fun experience for us. That's why we open our wallets. If the only argument to doing something that would clearly help not only the balance of, but the perception of, the game is "sorry, it's too hard", then SE might want to revisit the skill of their development team. I wouldn't expect it overnight. Maybe 1-2 jobs over the course of a couple of patches or even an expansion, but at some point it will have to be addressed and Yoshi-P himself has acknowledged that though he's been pretty quiet about it lately. I guess we will have his answer when ninja and rogue hit.

[Ultimatecalibur]

This is why the opposing idea is to have a completely different "trainer," because people think the devs will accommodate for the new players, which is not likely.

Are you aware that much of the post-2.0 game dialog is mutable and that they can make different players see different NPCs when standing in the same place at the same time? Prior to 2.1 many of the guildmaster/job trainer NPCs would act like it it was their first time meeting you during main story quests even if you were 50 in that class. Now in post-2.0, characters with goldsmith unlocked got different dialog when talking to the guildmaster during little ladies day, characters with any DoH unlocked got different dialog when unlocking the Ixali beast tribe quests, the WHM job trainer will comment if you have WHM and talk to him about Lost City. They are likely to use their existing tools here and new characters are likely able to play ROG/NIN through the whole story without changing your continuity. Yugiri can be the Ninja Trainer for characters who have cleared the 2.2 main story and another NPC will likely be the trainer for players who have yet to reach that point in the story.

[EdwinLi]

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Well they also have to make the Job story consistent even if the Job story is a separate story from the Main story.

Each Job story has involved the Job Trainer as part of the storyline either because the Job story covers helping Job Trainer resolve their own personal issues (Bard, Monk, White Mage, and Black Mage Job quest) or because they help us fight against a Job rival (Summoner and Dragoon Job story) or simply because they need to train the next generation of "Job" users (Warrior and Paladin). So it possible the Job Trainer will be the same person no matter what timeframe you become a Ninja.

Though the "Help resolve personal issue" story seems to be the most popular of the Job Storylines.

[Niwashi]

Being a Ninja before the person that is going to teach you about being a Ninja even arrives ruins the continuous narrative of the story.

Not if you can learn most of it without her training. There is a reference to her providing training, but that doesn't mean it has to be the very first thing that happens. You could start learning it on your own, or learn from someone else, and then she shows up with more experience and so can provide some more advanced training for you. It only indicates that something happens with the Ninja job after her arrival, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the initial unlocking of the job.

Perhaps it's only the level 50 NIN quests (or eventually 55, 60, etc once the level cap is raised) that you get from Yuguiri, after having done the level 30, 35, 40, and 45 NIN quests without her help.