Done with FFXIV until RDM comes along...

[Yahavage]

This is very depressing since an RDM class is sorely needed in 14 with spell speed being useless, and no real regen spells.

Apart from... regen? :x

[Aurelle_Delacroix]

It's clear they have support jobs because brd exist, and rdm is suppose to be a solo supporter not a party supporter, their spells are meant to function for them self, but be useful to others(ie not a main heal, suppose to be a spell sword dps). RDM would be very easy to put into the game this second just combining different existing job skill from various classes/jobs and making them used with a sword. They also said all the new jobs are coming out in 3.0 which is ~1.5 patches away so why would not wait till then. Yoshi already stated in an interview rdm is one of the jobs he wants to add to the game earlier then later.
Sch has miasma and virus, drg has slow, and it's whole debuff rotation, monk has a debuff rotation.... if you look at the dat mines it looks like ninja has a debuff rotation aswell... oh look every dps(except blm), sch, and tanks have a debuff rotation, or strong debuff skill(pld/sch).

Whaa? Black Mage does have debuffs. Blizzard 1 gives Heavy, Blizzard 2 gives Bind, Lethargy has slow AND heavy (which is insta-cast and works great on the Dreadknights in T5), and Freeze which also binds. Not to mention we also get access to Virus as well. Sure, it isn't a debuff 'rotation' but Black Mages have a good chunk of skills with added effects to them. They may be situational but I've found a use for every single one of those skills at some point.

[Kaonis]

The issue though OP, is that the current combat system and mechanics in fights doesn't support support classes at all. Until they do a major redesign of the system I can't see them releasing anything with real support abilities anytime soon.

This also speaks nothing of how debuffs are presently worthless. Most bosses ignore all debuffs aside from a few, or they have diminishing returns that they become pointless very quickly.

[Duelle]

This also speaks nothing of how debuffs are presently worthless. Most bosses ignore all debuffs aside from a few, or they have diminishing returns that they become pointless very quickly.

Bosses ignore debuffs because debuffs affecting bosses would be overpowered. It's also why certain status spells have been kept out of the hands of players. That said, buffs and debuffs are a tertiary class aspect and should not be the focus on a class. Hence the existence of the holy trinity and the fact that it has been blended into the other roles.

[Kaonis]

Bosses ignore debuffs because debuffs affecting bosses would be overpowered. It's also why certain status spells have been kept out of the hands of players. That said, buffs and debuffs are a tertiary class aspect and should not be the focus on a class. Hence the existence of the holy trinity and the fact that it has been blended into the other roles.

But plenty of games have dealt with debuffing bosses. It's just plain stupid the devs included some debuffs in the game that are worthless. I don't even have feint on my DRG's hotbar because it barely affects anything, it's so beyond situational it's just a waste of space for something more useful.

Slow I think is a perfect example, they could make bosses susceptible to slow and maybe just make it cap out at a %, so instead of 20% they only get hit with 7%, it's not so overpowered but still adds something and makes classes with that debuff actually able to use it.

Debuffs aren't over powered, you just need to learn to maths. Besides there's already an MMO out there that handled debuffs well, it's called FFXI, I'm sure the devs heard of this obscure and highly foreign game.

[Deusteele]

So now bosses hit 7% faster and the debuff is required. Yay?! Yet another thing to track in the middle of a fight.

Using FF XI for reference doesn't really help your case. The development team for XI couldn't find "game balance" with a Ouija Board and an extra set of eyeballs.

[Kaonis]

So now bosses hit 7% faster and the debuff is required. Yay?! Yet another thing to track in the middle of a fight.

Using FF XI for reference doesn't really help your case. The development team for XI couldn't find "game balance" with a Ouija Board and an extra set of eyeballs.

What was I thinking? You're right anything not pure DPS should be gutted from the game! It's not like tanks and DPS have debuffs already that have to constantly be put on and kept track of. Let's just remove all skills that aren't pure DPS or better yet just make 2 buttons, one for AoE and one for single target! It's not like having a variety of actions including non-DPS moves is fun or remotely interesting anyways! [/sarcasm]

FFXI is a great reference at least, cause it was a game that was actually fun and interesting. Combat is bland and beyond mind-numbingly boring in this game.

[Deusteele]

Attacking strawmen doesn't really help you much either.

You're basically asking for fights to be tuned around having to bring a support job. Because if players aren't forced to have one, they won't bring one. We've seen plenty of strategies built around dropping one role or an unnecessary job to speed up fights.

Posters on these forums seem to believe in a bizzaro MMO world where players won't take the path of least resistance when developing a strategy to deal with an encounter, despite having evidence of players choosing to do that shown repeatedly.

[Kuwagami]

you know RDM isn't exactly a support to begin with ? right ?
Having access to all the non-overpowered abilities of BLM/WHM doesn't make you a support. I don't know what they did in FFXI, but in other FFs, you'd want to check green/blue mage for support (blue has a nice set of attacks too), geomancer for dps/debuff, dancer for debuffs and *cough*bard*cough* for buffs.

Attacking strawmen doesn't really help you much either.

You're basically asking for fights to be tuned around having to bring a support job. Because if players aren't forced to have one, they won't bring one. We've seen plenty of strategies built around dropping one role or an unnecessary job to speed up fights.

Posters on these forums seem to believe in a bizzaro MMO world where players won't take the path of least resistance when developing a strategy to deal with an encounter, despite having evidence of players choosing to do that shown repeatedly.

when used correctly, a buffer/debuffer is way more valuable than an extra dps, even for fights when it's not necessary to bring a support. That said, for 4 men content supports would be utterly useless (not enough mechanics/long fights to justify their use), and in the current state every buff/debuff is spread in the different classes anyway

[Deusteele]

Supporters can only add to damage done by the party, or reduce damage taken by the party. That's all any role can do.

If they increase damage done by a greater number then the dps role that they filling, they are mandatory.
If they reduce damage taken by a great amount then a healer can heal, they are mandatory.
If they can do both, they are mandatory.

Either way, you are now forcing a group to take a supporter, becauses fights will be balanced around their presence. This is why we won't get the traditional Haste spells, because it would instantly be tagged as mandatory and balanced around.