Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Shipp]

They aren't except one destroys content for new and old players alike, while the other allows it co-exist.

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.

I never saw anyone complaining about a lack of a level increase when CoP came out. None of the people I played with were expecting to see a level cap raise. I'm sure there must have been people making noise about it because the dev team did decide to make the statement that they had no plans to increase the level beyond 75.

If there was a schism in the ffxi community over the issue, I never saw it.

There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

[Ferth]

Byakko's Haidate were still some of the most highly sought after melee pants. There were other options for some people, but really. Nothing came out that beat them until AF+3.

With newer gear and merits sky became easier. Also with the way the game was played. When the first generation of players hit 75 haste gear was limited and largely overlooked.

As players came to understand the system better and as different gear became accessible you no longer needed full alliances to farm sky, and it's true finding 18 people who needed sky would have been a challenge in it's own right. But there still were people who needed sky, and there still were people who would do sky... and Byakko never became so easy that he could be killed by two players. He was still largely worth killing.

True the same may not be able to be said about Genbu or Suzaku or Seiryu beyond the seals needed to pop kirin, but Kirin, even though he could be zerged was still worth killing.

[danny52844]

Because when you grind for upgrades, the sky is the limit, and you're actually advancing. You are not advancing by making different gear with nearly the same stats. Eventually, all of those minor +1 to stats on new gear is going to equal +10, which happened in XI. Guess what? You no longer have side-grades, you have upgrades. If you have upgrades, even with a static cap, you're still making old content irrelevant.

can u give me any examples from FF11 where they purely made a peice obsolete (by that i mean it once had a use and now doesnt not like some AF Peices were shit all the time)
and even if u can give me like 5 peices why would they make those mistakes again in 14? if u have alot of classes u can have alot of side grades

btw i know i cnat convice ppl like u who think u have to lv up to actually think thiers progression just to tell u :| i had a 75 thf blm and rdm on 11 and tbh i was like lv 75 while other elitist who had full relic and everything were like lv 90 (what im saying is even though its horizontal it still has vertical offects even if u dont have to see the level go up)

[Murugan]

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.


There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

It wasn't to me, I had been done with for a long time. However for people who still needed much of that gear it could be done. I quit before Abyssea it may have been useless before that, but I seriously doubt all of the HNM's I used to farm were.

Of course you become done with content eventually, but there are better ways to progress characters than making old content completely obsolete not only for the people who already have all its rewards, but for new people who should have the chance to progress through it. That is what raising the level cap arbitrarily does, they should be more creative when adding new content so they can grow (EXPAND) the game with expansions. Expansions should never reduce the amount of overall content players have to play through.

[danny52844]

It wasn't to me, I had been done with for a long time. However for people who still needed much of that gear it could be done. I quit before Abyssea it may have been useless before that, but I seriously doubt all of the HNM's I used to farm were.

Of course you become done with content eventually, but there are better ways to progress characters than making old content completely obsolete not only for the people who already have all its rewards, but for new people who should have the chance to progress through it. That is what raising the level cap arbitrarily does, they should be more creative when adding new content so they can grow (EXPAND) the game with expansions. Expansions should never reduce the amount of overall content players have to play through.

can i like ur comment like 1000 times ._.
but like he siad just because YOUR done with the content doesnt mean it has to become obsolete to every1 it just means it is to u and thats why they add more dungeons on the side instead of just saying o well u didnt join early enough for this to be rewarding just skip it

[Ferth]

Please tell me how sky was still relevant up until Abyssea. Please tell me. I promise not to be a total ass when I prove you wrong.


There was, and a rather large one at that. Abyssea just seems like an after-thought to give a dying game's fans what they want. At least to me. I never saw the point in raising the cap in XI, mainly because I had already pimped out my character with what I wanted, I had accomplished everything I wanted to, and I was done and over with the game mid-way through ToAU. Went to a game that didn't require 5+ hours to get normal things done, such as leveling and it still has my interest 5 years later.

FFXI started going downhill in ToAU, after that, it continued down that road. ToAU is what killed Sky and Sea in XI. This is why I stated earlier, the only people who think otherwise are people who didn't start until ToAU or they're looking back with rose-tinted glasses.

I will agree that ToAU was when the biggest shifts in FFXI started occurring. With the ease of exp gain those areas afforded the general skill level of the population decreased. As to whether it killed sky is up in the air. New players would still need gear from sky, though.

Sea had problems all it's own, I don't think many of them were based on anything beyond it's own poor design. But the gear from limbus was still sought after.

I'm not trying to pretend that in it's entirety FFXI was nothing but sunshine and lemonade. No MMO is.

I think the biggest issue I have with most of your arguments is that you are trying to represent a section of the population you really can't account for.

All of my arguments are based on my personal experience in the game. Things I personally enjoyed doing and aspects of the game that effected me personally.

It's hard to quantify a statement someone makes when they try to speak for other people.

[Shipp]

Byakko's Haidate were still some of the most highly sought after melee pants. There were other options for some people, but really. Nothing came out that beat them until AF+3.

Weren't Haidate replaced with melee pants in Limbus? I could have sworn Omega dropped some, or maybe it was another boss. I distinctly remember LS drama over those pants in Limbus. Even so, giving the benefit of the doubt, that is one item, and one boss, out of all of sky. And Byakko stopped being a challenge at all by the end of CoP. Again, if it's not a challenge at all anymore, then that's the same thing as a level increase making it irrelevant.

With newer gear and merits sky became easier. Also with the way the game was played. When the first generation of players hit 75 haste gear was limited and largely overlooked.

Just like I said before. Out-dated content becomes out-dated. Whether it is through merits, upgraded gear, or level increases, out-dated content became out-dated. It was not Abyssea that did this. It was not a level increase that did this. It was from a few too many side-grades now being actual up-grades from RoZ gear.

As players came to understand the system better and as different gear became accessible you no longer needed full alliances to farm sky, and it's true finding 18 people who needed sky would have been a challenge in it's own right. But there still were people who needed sky, and there still were people who would do sky... and Byakko never became so easy that he could be killed by two players. He was still largely worth killing.

Only reason Byakko couldn't be duo'd is because of his mechanics. It wasn't because he was still relevant. I can't go solo level 70 end-raids on my 85 toons. Why? Mechanics. I still go run them with friends though, because they do still drop -relevant- stuff. How? Enchanting recipes for one. Karazhan has quite a few enchant recipes that are expensive, not because of the mats that they require, but because BC enchants can be placed on heirloom gear (gear that levels with you 1-80, and gives you a 10% XP boost for each piece) while WoTLK enchants require an item above the level of 35. They're about as worth running as somebody running sky for some random piece of gear. And about the same number of people run them. I can't think of any worthwhile drops, outside of -maybe- Haidate (if I'm wrong about the limbus pants being an upgrade), that were still useful in sky after ToAU instances were introduced. Sure, people still ran sky, but people still do level 60, 70, and 80 raids in WoW for the achievements, guild achievements, and for fun. I'm failing to see how this is any different, having played both and doing out-dated content in both.

True the same may not be able to be said about Genbu or Suzaku or Seiryu beyond the seals needed to pop kirin, but Kirin, even though he could be zerged was still worth killing.

So essentially, what this boils down to is, "Even though this out-dated content is old is dirt and we can kill the final boss in under a minute, this is good content, so we should still be doing this for years to come!"? Am I getting that right? When the boss is no longer a challenge, it is time that the gear should no longer be of use. Reward = effort. No effort? No reward. And effort isn't bloated wait times farming for everything just to fight Kirin, nor is it bloated fighting time due to an insane amount of HP. Effort is killing a boss with difficult mechanics that don't seem completely stupid, like AV's.

[Shipp]

I will agree that ToAU was when the biggest shifts in FFXI started occurring. With the ease of exp gain those areas afforded the general skill level of the population decreased. As to whether it killed sky is up in the air. New players would still need gear from sky, though.

Sea had problems all it's own, I don't think many of them were based on anything beyond it's own poor design. But the gear from limbus was still sought after.

I'm not trying to pretend that in it's entirety FFXI was nothing but sunshine and lemonade. No MMO is.

I think the biggest issue I have with most of your arguments is that you are trying to represent a section of the population you really can't account for.

All of my arguments are based on my personal experience in the game. Things I personally enjoyed doing and aspects of the game that effected me personally.

It's hard to quantify a statement someone makes when they try to speak for other people.

I'm speaking from my own experience, the numerous LSes I had been in over the years, and the general state of the zones when I would walk down memory lane years later.

Most sky gear was replaced by the time ToAU introduced instances. When that happened, they weren't so much side-grades or situational gear anymore. Most of it was a straight up up-grade. This, in itself, even without a level increase, kills off old content.

People can talk about how it would always be relevant because a new person might need something from there, but there are a few problems with that. When there is better gear already out there, that person doesn't -need- to go there. Even if there isn't better gear, the vast majority of people had finished sky and sea by that time and didn't -want- to go back there, especially just for one person. Getting a group together to help one person in XI was like pulling teeth. This doesn't happen in WoW and other MMOs that increase level cap because people are not forced to go through 5 year old content just to catch up to the current gear curve.

I'm not saying one system is necessarily better (I do believe level increases are better) but that is not what I'm arguing here, and I think that's what is being overlooked.

The whole premise of this argument is that level increases make old content outdated. My argument is old content was already outdated years before the level cap increase. If old content is going to be outdated either way, then why not increase the cap gradually instead of potentially ending up in the mud pit of FFXI where you're static 75 for years, being told it will never change, investing months of /played over the years gearing up, then one day the carpet is pulled from beneath you, causing you to rage and quit soon after? Increasing the level cap seems like a much better solution since you don't have 6 years to get attached to gear, nor 6 years trying to obtain everything you need.

[Ferth]

You'll have to excuse me if I don't understand your WoW references... as I said the game didn't hold my attention past level 30.

When I initially lost interest in what FFXIV was, while still waiting for news on what it would turn into, I picked up LoTRO again. The level cap since I had left changed from 50 to 65.

Every class had several items needed to finish a quest that were obtainable from a level 50 instance or from grinding a newer instance for barter items. Since I was well versed in the 50 instance, I opted to just crank that out for the items I'd need on a new character I had created. During what used to be one of the hardest fights in the game my friend died. The nature of the fight is if you aren't in the arena when the fight starts you can't join the fight midway. Up until that point we were the only two people in the instances, we had duo'd our way as far as we had, and when he died, he was unable to continue the fight. I was able to solo the remaining 3/4s of the fight. I was level 62 at the time.

Yeah, Kirin could be killed in under a minute after ToAU, but it required 18+ people to do it. And yes Byakko could be killed by a skilled well set-up group of 6 people, but to say that it wasn't a challenge is by no means correct. If we had brought 18 people, no it probably wouldn't have been much of a challenge.

The point I am making isn't that with a static level cap old content remains just as relevant as the day it releases. My point is that with a static level cap, content retains relevance purely on a player by player case.

You go back and play raids you enjoyed doing. But how many people who never experienced them are going to bother?

I have memories of FFXI where it was absolutely brutal... Sometimes I hated the game. Other times I loved it. And yeah alot of that is from nostalgia... but when a new player in my ls needed an item that I knew how to get, I was always up for helping...

Alot of what endeared FFXI to me near the end was content that was originally designed to be experienced with a massive group, could now be experienced with a smaller more intimate group.

And I'm sure that remains true in WoW and in lotro. But in FFXI it wasn't JUST my nostalgia that gave relevance to the content. People still needed it. It may have been far less people than when the content was introduced, but the rewards were still valuable. And the content was still enjoyable.

From your perspective I'm sure you could make the same arguments for WoW. From my perspective, I can't.

As Rjain said, both systems have pros and cons... My only goal is to make sure that the dev team recognizes that for 6 years ffxi worked for me. If enough people agree with me, fantastic. But your arguments for your preference hold just about as much weight as my arguments for my preference, and that weight is entirely dependent on our own experiences and opinions.

----

As for limbus pants replacing byakko's haidate, it's just not true. Homam cosciales could be worn by pld/drk/thf/blu.

Byakko's haidate could be worn by war/nin/monk/sam.

The haidate really didn't get anything that even came close until salvage gear, and for the salvage pants to be better you needed the full set, and to get the full set could take years.

Byakko's haidate were easy enough to get and for warriors, pretty much the only option.

The last few linkshells I was in before I stopped playing all had sky as a scheduled event. And yeah sometimes when it was time to do sky we might have had only 4-5 people. But 4-5 people could do alot in terms of first tier pop items.

When it came time to actually fight the four, people showed up. Because on top of the gear that people still needed or wanted, everything dropped salable items, and even if people didn't want anything from the fight, they wanted a cut of the dough.

[Murugan]

I'm speaking from my own experience, the numerous LSes I had been in over the years, and the general state of the zones when I would walk down memory lane years later.

Most sky gear was replaced by the time ToAU introduced instances. When that happened, they weren't so much side-grades or situational gear anymore. Most of it was a straight up up-grade. This, in itself, even without a level increase, kills off old content.

People can talk about how it would always be relevant because a new person might need something from there, but there are a few problems with that. When there is better gear already out there, that person doesn't -need- to go there. Even if there isn't better gear, the vast majority of people had finished sky and sea by that time and didn't -want- to go back there, especially just for one person. Getting a group together to help one person in XI was like pulling teeth. This doesn't happen in WoW and other MMOs that increase level cap because people are not forced to go through 5 year old content just to catch up to the current gear curve.

I'm not saying one system is necessarily better (I do believe level increases are better) but that is not what I'm arguing here, and I think that's what is being overlooked.

The whole premise of this argument is that level increases make old content outdated. My argument is old content was already outdated years before the level cap increase. If old content is going to be outdated either way, then why not increase the cap gradually instead of potentially ending up in the mud pit of FFXI where you're static 75 for years, being told it will never change, investing months of /played over the years gearing up, then one day the carpet is pulled from beneath you, causing you to rage and quit soon after? Increasing the level cap seems like a much better solution since you don't have 6 years to get attached to gear, nor 6 years trying to obtain everything you need.

You argument is that a lot of content was old and tired, and easy due to another terrible expansion before Abyssea. Abyssea was the nail in the coffin, but I'll agree that it was downhill long before then in terms of that old content.

You are too focused on FFXI, the lesson from XI is simply that you don't need to do level increase to make new content that people will want to do. They proved that, just because they messed it up on multiple occasions doesn't change that. If they had raised level cap with CoP the game would have started down hill years earlier, instead that was some of the best times many of who played XI remember, playing both new and much old original content and it didn't need a level increase. People could still come into FFXI at CoP's release and enjoy most of what made the game great and enjoyable before CoP while still getting to experience CoP's content. It was a real expansion of the content in game for everyone.