Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[giftforce]

Endgame/fun should start on day 1.

It's bad enough we have 50 ranks of pointless crap to go through as a barrier to entry to the "content" (which so far isn't even there anyway), let alone more pointless crap to go through every 1-2 years, making everything before it obsolete.

Another thing, the only motivation for level cap increase is because SE doesn't want a saturated side-grade gear system, and also because grind is the easiest form of content to implement.

Well guess what, gear and grind shouldn't be what a MMO is purely about. Not all games focus on gear grinding. Yoshi himself played DaoC, which included concepts like territorial control as an end-game motivator.

Level cap rise is just lazy and unimaginative game design. Typical SE lately.

[weeble]

doing content and running threw it is 2 diff things, solo'ing something that took full shells to do isn't still doing content. that is like killing the rank 5nm for a rank 7rare,ex gear. yeah it's being done, but it ain't the same. caps on content or bust, and keeping the content always changing every year or two again ..still horrible idea. i don't think u can win me on this one, it's just 2 diff opinions and game styles. but then again i'd want caps on every single fight, nm's, quests, missions, hell regular grind mobs too..u attack u drop to the right rank to make it challenging.

[Ichi]

This is absurd, all these people pretending that they know everything about everything. Your not a market expert or an mmo scientist. Please respectfully shut your mouths about how your opinion is thinking of the well-being of the game.

You are stating an opinion and calling it a fact, that's total and complete conjecture. I have no problem with people sharing their opinions but don't pretend like you know whats good for everyone. It's totally asinine.

[Ferth]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

[Shipp]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

I'm offensive, the poster right up there ^ told everyone who wants a level change to basically STFU and GTFO?

What is the definition of stagnate? Compare that to 75s in FFXI for 6 years. It IS stagnating. Where new content is being released or not, your character progression is staying stagnant.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

There's a difference. I also run fresh content and realize that old content is old instead of trying to act as if it's somehow still part of the majority's "endgame hardcore" list.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I personally don't care either way. I do like level cap increases, and I think they should do it. Guess what, my argument may be based on personal preference (it's really not, I've just stated how level cap increases aren't what killed off sky), but I'm sure Yoshi-P does have some data. He decided level raises were a good thing.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Yes, I'm not denying there were people who found value in that system. I found value in never having to worry about a cap increase after I completely pimped out my Taru. That doesn't mean it was actually good for the game.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

Which is the same thing you're doing in the thread too. The point of the thread is to have a discussion and debate about which is better.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

I've never taken that stance. I didn't hate FFXI, I loved FFXI. However those who want a one-time level cap -are- in the minority, otherwise we'd be seeing it as the norm in MMOs.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

Same can be said for you. If you don't like having an increasing level cap, say that and move on. Do you see how ridiculous your argument for this is? That's not being offensive, that's calling a spade a spade.

Edit:

Auctiongirl had an excellent post which explained how vertical is better than horizontal.

So if my rebuttals are so bad, then come up with some other reason why horizontal progression doesn't limit growth of the game.

Another statement: You can add in new weapons/armor that doesn't negate the existing.
Rebuttal: If you add in new weapons that are better, you just negated the old content anyways, and if you add in something that isn't better. Then why even get it? Your limited on inventory spaces anyways... With vertical progression, you will need these new weapons and armors, new recipes, new gathering locations/materials.

The problem with horizontal progression, is you are limiting the game to potential growth. Horizontal can only go so wide before it must go vertical. If you wait too long to go vertical, you lose all the players who don't like to repeat the same content 1000 times, and then you lose all the people who did and feel like they accomplished something by having +1 STR items over everyone else. If you do the merit system like FFXI, you are negating old content anyways, its another form of vertical progression, except the fact that now those old Rank 75 things are now super easy because of those merits.

People who had level 100 crafting after 1 year of the game, still had level 100 crafting after 7 years of the game. They were done crafting. With vertical progression, you can keep all players growing.

Here is an idea on how to keep older content relative... make existing weapons/armors upgradable by new and existing items. Capped areas, and update the existing content with new expansions (rank increases).

So list out all the pro's and con's for horizontal progression, and guaranteed that vertical progression pro's and con's will outweigh everything horizontal does (from a business perspective)

Has anyone actually tried to prove this false? No. Instead, it's degraded into mudslinging towards anyone who wants vertical, because "Horizontal worked in XI so it much be best," when it actually didn't work in XI for the reasons she stated.

[Ferth]

Now you are just putting words in people's mouths.

You are still trying to proselytize.

I am not trying to force anyone to my point of view, I'm trying to get accurate representation for both sides. I'd be just as happy if this thread or the previous one on the subject had two posts. "Like this if you are in favor of X" and "Like this if you are in favor of Y." Or hell, "Like this if you don't give a rats ass."

I recognize that my perspective is just as skewed as yours is. And I'm not trying to convince people who don't agree with me that they are somehow wrong.

I will, however, point out when an argument is weak.

And you know what. You are right about Auction Girl's post. She makes several really valid points. My highest craft in FFXI was 36 goldsmithing so I never experienced the stagnation of crafting. It was completely off my radar.

However since her post before that started out by saying "The FEW who liked this..." I largely ignored her... because as you pointed out; the only guy who dictates what's going on is Yoshida.

I am not taking the standpoint that if you disagree with me gtfo.

I just am tired of people coming up and saying "I didn't like this and all my friends didn't like this so it clearly isn't the best way to go."

My sole goal here is to ensure that the people who found value in the system of having a static level cap are represented and that the dev team considers that in their decision, regardless of which direction they end up going.

Everything that I've said has been in defense of it, and has been from my personal experience. I've not tried to speak for anyone but myself. When I have said something without having the full facts I've tried to make up for it. Our discussion about raids for example.

I have never said that Sky was just as relevant right before Abyssea as it was when it first released. I have merely pointed out that it still bore relevance.

But as Rjain pointed out about 5 pages ago, the debate, the arguing is largely worthless because no one is going to convince anyone else that their personal views are some how wrong.

At this point it then just comes down to that if you prefer one way or the other, just say so. Don't try to undermine one or the other, because it really is just personal opinion.

[Shipp]

Now you are just putting words in people's mouths.

You are still trying to proselytize.

This is absurd, all these people pretending that they know everything about everything. Your not a market expert or an mmo scientist. Please respectfully shut your mouths about how your opinion is thinking of the well-being of the game.[/quote]
I am not trying to win people over to my side. My side has already won. I don't care if people want horizontal or not, we're already getting vertical. I am trying to give reasons as to why horizontal hits a roadblock eventually while vertical does not run into this problem. This is not proselytizing, this is trying to point out some things about two different systems and how one eventually does stagnate. Was XI stagnating in CoP? Not really. Was XI stagnating in ToAU? Towards the end, yes. Was it in WoTG? Most definitely. The storyline can keep changing all it wants. Player progression is key to an MMO. If all people care about is story, then go read a book, watch a movie, or play an offline RPG. Story is important in an MMO, but player progression is just as much so.

I am not trying to force anyone to my point of view, I'm trying to get accurate representation for both sides. I'd be just as happy if this thread or the previous one on the subject had two posts. "Like this if you are in favor of X" and "Like this if you are in favor of Y." Or hell, "Like this if you don't give a rats ass."

And I am doing the exact same thing as you.

I recognize that my perspective is just as skewed as yours is. And I'm not trying to convince people who don't agree with me that they are somehow wrong.

I have stated several times that I respect the opinion of those who want to stagnate at one level cap. Stagnate doesn't have negative connotations. It simply means to stay the same. And that is what a level 75 cap for 6+ years did. It stagnated. That's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It's the issues stemming from it which became a problem.

I will, however, point out when an argument is weak.

And you know what. You are right about Auction Girl's post. She makes several really valid points. My highest craft in FFXI was 36 goldsmithing so I never experienced the stagnation of crafting. It was completely off my radar.

However since her post before that started out by saying "The FEW who liked this..." I largely ignored her... because as you pointed out; the only guy who dictates what's going on is Yoshida.

It -is- the few who like it. That's what you don't seem to be understanding. If the majority of MMO players don't want level increases, then MMOs would largely be like XI was for years. Level increases are one of the major staples of MMOs. It gives a sense of always getting stronger. Think of it this way:

When a person is a wrestler (real wrestling), they are in weight brackets. If they end up building more muscle (leveling up in an MMO), then they have to wrestle people in that same weight bracket (new bosses in an MMO). They do not get to be heavier than everyone else and still compete in lower brackets. As they get heavier, so do their opponents.

Whether my mage is still doing 20% of the total damage in Cata like he was in BC is irrelevant. My mage is substantially stronger and has grown in character progression.

That is the key issue that I am trying to bring up. Character progression happens. There's no way around it. If it stops, the game loses everyone but the diehards. Character progression still happened in XI, which is why old content slowly became a thing of the past. Back in sky's hay-day, you'd have 4-5+ major linkshells all camping with 18+ people each. It was brutal running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to steal NMs or beat each other to them. This was when it was "hardcore endgame" content. A single party, or a single LS, or even 2 small groups from 2 different linkshells camping old content does not make it relevant, whether it still has one or two drops that are still used or not. When you claim something is relevant, it leads to the assumption that most people are still doing that content. That was not the case with sky. Most -LINKSHELLS- might have had small groups up there, but most players were over it. This isn't me passing off my own view and opinion as a fact, this is a fact. Go read through any FFXI forum from 2007+ and tell me how many people were still talking about sky like they were in the 2004-2006 years.

Things like Dynamis were different, I admit that Dyna was still very relevant through CoP, and I was even doing it during my stay after the Moogle add-on.

I am not taking the standpoint that if you disagree with me gtfo.

I wasn't talking about you.

I just am tired of people coming up and saying "I didn't like this and all my friends didn't like this so it clearly isn't the best way to go."

But that's not my stance. Yes, I have made that comment, but that is not what I'm basing my argument on. I'm basing my argument from multiple people, across multiple servers, and across multiple message boards.

I'm also basing my stance on similar complaints in WoW. "Please Blizzard, give us back our 60 cap on special servers." Repeat for every increase. If those people were really in the majority, there would no longer be increases and there would be Vanilla, BC, and WoTLK servers.

If people in your camp on this matter were in the majority, Yoshi-P would not be implementing increases. I highly doubt he just went into this decision without any data. He's an MMO player, unlike Tanaka. He knows what MMO players like and he is trying to incorporate those things into XIV.

With horizontal progression, eventually you come to a time where everyone has everything they want. When people have all that they want, a large number of those people get tired of running the same content again for another person when it doesn't benefit them. That's selfish of those people, yes, I understand that, but in an MMO, we can't dictate to those people that they have to go and help other people who started later. The best solution to this? Make new content that people always have reason to keep doing, and not just for frivolous reasons or one or two pieces of gear. Give people a full carrot to chase and they'll be much more willing to keep chasing. The point is to never let the carrot be obtainable in an MMO. There's always something new and fresh to chase after. That is what MMOs are about. You and your friends chasing the next big thing.

As Auction Girl said, not everyone likes to level every single class, nor does everyone like to chase after the +1 version of existing gear which is only a minor improvement. Not everyone is hardcore. However, just as in WoW, it's usually the faux-hardcore wannabes that complain about older content becoming easier, because the real hardcore players are STILL ahead of everyone else, downing the new content while these posers are stuck on old content and don't want anyone ahead of them. I've seen it in every single MMO I've played and whether this is actually your motive or not, I don't know, nor does it matter, but this is the motive for a lot of people complaining about it. They get tired of being being the actual hardcore shells, so they think limiting those people is better than actually becoming better and joining them.

The top percentile of people in progression typically don't care about content becoming nerfed or outdated because they've completed it already. Look back on CoP. The first generation of players to get to Sea largely didn't care that it was nerfed. We'll make comments like, "Got to sea before the nerf," but that doesn't mean we care that it was nerfed. Why? Because we already had our time there before the majority of the server so it didn't matter. It's the special snowflakes in MMOs who usually whine about content becoming easier and out-of-date, because they couldn't complete it before it was face-roll and don't get bragging rights.

This happens in every single MMO. Every one of them. You have people in WoW who have just run 5mans for the badges at the end of the run to purchase tier gear from 10 mans. Then they complain how the content is useless and outdated from where the gear actually comes from. Why? Because they didn't earn the gear the hard way, they raced through the easy method and then face-rolled through the actual raid because they out-geared it. The same way people who earned the gear in sky back when it was hard, largely, didn't care that it became out-dated. It was either the people who still needed a piece or two there or the people (generalizing here, not saying this is you) who didn't get to experience it before they were in full AF2, CoP and ToAU gear and could just face-roll it. Obviously, some top tier progression players are going to complain, but they are in the minority, otherwise progression wouldn't happen.

[weeble]

i'd agree, the second u hit launch for first time they should start u off in some kinda epic battles/endgame even. content from begining to end, and lots of it that don't die out...ever. and lots of changing worlds and contents too.

though i would like to see our ranks move up to like 75-80 like in ffxi, or even 100. but in huge lumps with lots of new content. rank 50 is too easy, nother 25 ranks would be just right in respects to how long it took to hit max in ffxi. i think they did it right time wise to max.

[Shipp]

My sole goal here is to ensure that the people who found value in the system of having a static level cap are represented and that the dev team considers that in their decision, regardless of which direction they end up going.

Everything that I've said has been in defense of it, and has been from my personal experience. I've not tried to speak for anyone but myself. When I have said something without having the full facts I've tried to make up for it. Our discussion about raids for example.

I have never said that Sky was just as relevant right before Abyssea as it was when it first released. I have merely pointed out that it still bore relevance.

Again, the original person that I quoted when I entered the thread tried to pretend that Abyssea is the reason sky died. I'm sure there are STILL people running sky now. That doesn't still make it relevant content. Just because it had items with a minimal stat increase over other available gear from years later doesn't make it relevant, just as those enchanting recipes in The Burning Crusade don't make Karazhan relevant, even though the actual recipes still are for certain situations.

I was never responding to you in my first post. I was responding to something Jericho said. You got involved in the posting and keep trying to say you never made claims about things. Well really? That's because I was responding to Jericho originally, not you. I never said you were the one claiming that sky was killed from Abyssea. HE WAS.

But as Rjain pointed out about 5 pages ago, the debate, the arguing is largely worthless because no one is going to convince anyone else that their personal views are some how wrong.

At this point it then just comes down to that if you prefer one way or the other, just say so. Don't try to undermine one or the other, because it really is just personal opinion.

See, I really don't get this from you. I haven't tried to "undermine" anything you have said. You just seem to be of the opinion that 6+ year old content should still be relevant. I do not agree. I point out that even before Abyssea, Sky was largely irrelevant for most endgame people, you keep trying to argue that a small group of people still stuck on 6 year old content for 1 or 2 drops makes it relevant. I could easily claim you are trying to undermine my view and also the facts of how top endgame shells actually felt about that content. I've given numerous examples of how vertical actually eliminates problems for developers, as have other people in this thread. I've given numerous examples of evidence that seems to strongly suggest the majority of MMO players prefer level progression instead of sitting at one level for years and years. You have not given anything to the contrary besides your own opinion. We all have opinions, and it's fine that you want to voice yours to the devs. You are well within your right to do so, and I'm not trying to stop you.

I'm just trying to get a valid reason as to why horizontal progression is better instead of, "I like it so it is," like you claim I do. I have used personal examples and opinions to further my point, but I have not outright based my argument on my opinion alone, nor have I tried to speak for all MMO players. Pointing out that the majority of people were not still in sky constantly and that it wasn't like it was back in 2004-2006 is not the same thing as speaking for those people.

[Ichi]

So if my rebuttals are so bad, then come up with some other reason why horizontal progression doesn't limit growth of the game.

ok

Another statement: You can add in new weapons/armor that doesn't negate the existing.
Rebuttal: If you add in new weapons that are better, you just negated the old content anyways, and if you add in something that isn't better. Then why even get it? Your limited on inventory spaces anyways... With vertical progression, you will need these new weapons and armors, new recipes, new gathering locations/materials.

Because it's not about whether the new weapon is better or worse it's about the actual stats and effects it contains. If one endgame hat has 4dex and 7str and another eg hat has 7dex and 4str which is better? which is worse? Neither one of those hats is better or worse than the other assuming it has no other stats. Now in a system where one of these hats came out under a shorter level cap the higher level hat lets say its the first one would have something like 6dex 10str vs 7dex 4str.

Clearly the 'option' is slowly being taken away from me as the ranks separate.

Now you can say that they can add as many options as the want in every cap raise, and they can. However, there is clearly only so much they can do at some point someone is going to want some stat that isn't around under the new the cap. So what? they can wear the old gear anyway right? wrong, the game mechanics dictate now that the new gear is so necessary that they are gimp without it then they really don't have a choice as above all no one wants to be gimp.

The game mechanics im referring to are the same mechanics all mmos share. Base stats go up with levels and without sufficient base stats a person will wipe before they have a chance to effect an outcome. Like a naked player, rank 50 is 30 gear is usually gimp.

The problem with horizontal progression, is you are limiting the game to potential growth. Horizontal can only go so wide before it must go vertical. If you wait too long to go vertical, you lose all the players who don't like to repeat the same content 1000 times, and then you lose all the people who did and feel like they accomplished something by having +1 STR items over everyone else. If you do the merit system like FFXI, you are negating old content anyways, its another form of vertical progression, except the fact that now those old Rank 75 things are now super easy because of those merits.

I don't understand why you assume that having a longer standing level cap means you have the same content. You can add content without increasing the level cap so your point is moot. It's not the 1 more str im after, it's the option of different stats it's not all about str, or dex or vit sorry to say.

Becoming stronger doesn't negate content that is not my concern at all. The way you negate content is by making it so there is no reason (no progression in it) to do it. Besides just doing it for the heck of it. I don't care if the mob dies quick or slow that is not the point i'm making here. Killing a rank 90 goblin headman (or w.e) may be the most challenging thing ig right now but there's very little reason to do it so it is likely that no one will experience it.

If there is different gear in different content for people to choose from then there are options and every option is relevant content to that particular individual. When there are less options then there is less relevant content.

People who had level 100 crafting after 1 year of the game, still had level 100 crafting after 7 years of the game. They were done crafting. With vertical progression, you can keep all players growing.

Recipes were added over the years so the same 100 crafters had new things to make. AND yet, they still had a demand the old stuff as it was still relevant to certain individuals hence there was more total things to do. Making someone level again doesn't inherently give them anything significantly new to do, just like you can add content without increasing cap you can add recipes. moot point.

Here is an idea on how to keep older content relative... make existing weapons/armors upgradable by new and existing items. Capped areas, and update the existing content with new expansions (rank increases).

Probably the only productive thing in this post. If I could thumbs up in sections then I would. The only thing that concerns me is that in the long run you're talking about lots of upgrades if a buccaneers shirt has to be upgraded as many times as there have been level cap increases then somewhere along the way we run the risk of having people complain about how inconvenient it is and push for a simplification that would kill content.

So list out all the pro's and con's for horizontal progression, and guaranteed that vertical progression pro's and con's will outweigh everything horizontal does (from a business perspective)

Oh I'm sorry i didn't realize I was talking to a business expert. Where did you get your degree? Is it relevant to the game industry? MMOS? Please elaborate, I need to know your credentials to assume that your knowledge is at all credible.

So list out all the pros and cons for vertical progression, and guaranteed that i've already explained in this post why I prefer a more horizontal method (not at all speaking exclusively). From a a total amount of options/diversity perspective.