Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Clicked]

I think lateral progression will be almost impossible to implement in a game like this without scaring off most of the player base.

However, more roles than Tank/Healer/DPS would be great. Problem is that they did away with those because they can't solo/PVP well and no one wanted to play someone who mainly buffs or debuffs and roles like "puller" are basically dead since groups no longer find a parking spot and sit there for hours pulling mobs as they respawn.

That's what I miss the most. Now, tanks, healers, and dps are roughly interchangeable. Classes are distinct in play style but not in purpose. And the group mechanics are no longer as rich because of it.

[skaterger]

This is the defense that is always used when someone brings up horizontal progression and stat diversity and it really isn't true. For one, as stats get more complex, the less other people tend to care about your gear as long as it is level and job appropriate. But sure, someone will always come out with best cookie cutter builds for DPS Output, Healing Output and Damage Mitigation. But you can most certainly have different synergies in gear and on top of that you can also have bonus attributes like movement speed, resistance and a whole slew of other things that work out situationally or to optimize burst damage over sustained. You can't tell me that a +5% movement speed buff has no chance of saving a bad dodger in Titan EX, Ramuh EX, T6 can you? What if you are fighting something that does a lot of unavoidable AoE damage but isn't made any easier by high DPS, wouldn't you like the option of using a higher defense/HP set at the cost of DPS output? Hypothetical of course but what if you could stack enough resist petrify to never have to worry about Shriek, Voice or Petrifaction on T7 again. Or imagine if your tank found a piece of gear that makes it so if he gets hit for more than half his HP in a single attack it restores 25% of the damage from the attack. That sure would be nice for Death Sentence or Ravensbeak right?


I've clearly seen these kinds of things work out flawlessly in multiple MMOs. In XI on my BLM when soloing I optimized very specifically to ensure that I could 1-shot my mob or I would get dead real fast. For normal farming I pulled out a scythe to whack things with, then for endgame bosses it was all about Elemental Magic Skill to reduce resists. My Cleric in Aion has 5 sets of gear (HP, Magic Resistance, Block, Healing Boost/MP and Magic Boost) that I use in PvE depending on the fight (no gear swap mechanics here). Many Clerics would often fail at healing runs because they would die or wouldn't have the MP to handle it. In my DPS set I frequently clocked in the top 5 DPS of all players at open world fortress sieges gaining me top credit and making solo content go by absurdly fast. Man what I would pay for a DPS set on my WHM in FFXIV cause holy farming is amazing already.

Actually the examples you provided hit the nail on the head for the problems that would arise with horizontal progression. Using your example as gear which gives petrification resistance for T7, ask yourself what is the biggest cause of wipes in T7. Yes petrification. So what do you think would be the requirement in PF for people that wish to join T7 runs? I think you can answer than question yourself. This is the inherent problem with horizontal progression. It is impossible to balance because the number of variables that developers have to balance with the multitude of gear out there is going to break the game in some form or another. You can even see it in the game currently. Groups that push world firsts have their members stack crafted gear and meld their accessories with vitality. That is not horizontal progression, there is no choice involved, that is forcing you to play the game in a certain way. It is even more limiting that any form of vertical progression.

First off, melded accessories by definition aren't at the current iLVL cap, making them inherently less good than anything that is at the current iLVL cap, period. The amount of specialization/odd stats you can do are pretty limited, and quite expensive. If you can think of any melded accessories that with their secondary stats make X fight more easier than using iLVL capped gear, please let us know.

Either way, this is nothing at all like for example using full Lightning Resistance gear and taking substantially less damage from Ramuh EX, which was a common tactic used in FFXI (tank dragons using fire resist gear so their unavoidable fireball attacks did next to nothing). Also doesn't really speak to the other wonderful examples given by other posters on how using different stats for different purposes would be way better than how the system currently works.

I remember raiding SSC in BC Wow and there was this boss called Hydross the Unstable. He was a water elemental whose attacks and abilities all dealt frost damage. If you had 0 frost resistance, which most tanks up to that point had none since content prior to that did not call for frost resist gear, you would be 2 shotted by his basic attack. So guilds had to farm for these gear from the trash leading up to the boss repeatedly hoping that the pattern for the gear drop and then had crafters craft a full set of frost resist gear for the tank. What you are asking for is basically this, again similar to my previous point, only one way and one way only to play the game. I'm not saying that this is a bad system, it could work in a niche game like Wildstar, but do you seriously think it has a place in ffxiv? What you are asking for is the company to do a 180 degree turn in its vision for the game and a big FU to players who played the game from launch.

[Dannythm]

Of course, in a perfect world... SE's next MMO would be:

• Directed by Hiroyuki Ito (worked on nearly every classic FF game, Director/Producer of FFXII/Int. Zodiak)
• Assistant Director Nobuaki Komoto (FFXI, FFXIV 1.0)
• Main Scenario/Writer: Yazumi Matsuno (Tactics Ogre, FFXII, FF:Tactics WoL, Vagrant Story)
• Planner Chief/Promotion: Naoki Yoshida (Yoshi P)
• Art direction by Akihiko Yoshida (FF Tactics, Tactics Ogre, FFXII, Vagrant Story, Bravely Default, FFIII remake,FFXIV/ARR etc.. the best artist SE has ever employed),
• Cover/Logo art by Yoshitaka Amano (must-have for any FF game)
• Soundtrack by Naoshi Mizuta (nearly every awesome track in FFXI written by him)
• Title track by Nobuo Uematsu (must-have for a FF game)
• Bonus tracks by Yasunori Mitsuda (Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Xenogears)
• UI design by Hiroshi Minagawa (FFXII, ARR)
• Lead Programmer: Hideyuki Kasuga (ARR, although he just quit 3 days ago.. not sure why ;_; )

Tanaka is another option for Director or Assistant director, but I think Ito has a firmer grasp on the essence of Final Fantasy.

You forgot an important role, that only one man could properly do, but it's a pity he's no longer in SE... Hironobu Sakaguchi as Producer. Also I think Tanaka should be be director and Ito be the combat and content director.

In a perfect world...

[Tupsi]

OP you haven't even beat coil 1 or even tried coil 2 according to the lodestone profile. Those fights are much more complex

Scripted, yes. Ifrit Extreme in 1.0 was a lot more hectic and fun. (Doesn't sound like you got there, though.)

I think 2.0 is great it doesn't need some complex stat system what we have is fine

Especially if you like simplicity and stagnation.

and they don't want to read a guide where someone mathematically figured out what gear and stats are optimal.

You mean like what they did with stats like skill speed/spell speed/Determination?

[Exstal]

Fun is subjective, don't forget that.

[Renik]

I started this thread with an idea on my mind "this game can't be a final product, it seems so unfinished", and i started it with a firmly conviction, although the people defending the game treat us like a minority, "the vocal minority", i think the real minority are those who consider this game perfect and don't want to see it change.
Lets face the truth, no game is perfect, after reading all the posts in this thread, talking to ppl and just reading shouts in game, i can say a vast majority want to see some changes, of course, they don't agree on which ones they would like to see, and Some wouldn't mind about seeing some changes.
I have seen players who login to run instances and leave once they are done, i have seen players who only craft and/or gather, players who only play in the open world... there are a lot of players out there with their own opinions and expectations that will never ever touch the forums.

The game is destined to grow and change, we can't know in which direction, but it will not stay as it is.

Believe or not one of the big selling points of this game is the hype, hype caused by promo videos and the intriguing expectation Yoshi causes with only 5 words, and this hype can't be just a lie, because it would cause bigger complains than the ones we currently have.

[Kazama]

You treat simplicity as something bad. Back from when I worked as some kind of designer there was a golden rule - KISS - Keep It Short and Simple.

KISS is mostly recognized as "Keep It Simple Stupid" - And it is meant to be applied in relation to over complicating things for no reason. Regardless, to apply KISS to a game is often really bad practice. It results in things like FFXIII where the game pretty much played itself and you watched cutscenes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

One of the problem with horizontal progression that it makes whole "ilvl or bust" goes beyond clouds. Every single situation will be min-maxed and people with non-optimal equipment will be shunned. And getting 5 sets of gear is a larger stress than getting 1 set.

That is not at all true. I gave you two very good examples both of which min-maxing weren't required. In 7 years of FFXI I don't recall a single occasion where people said no you can't do this with us because you don't have X item, and trust me my gear was nowhere near stellar or BiS. Same goes for Aion, never was I shunned from a group or run because I didn't have the right gear or stats or asked what my stats were even. In fact, you could block people from examining your gear all together.

Now on the contrary, I can't even get into some Leviathan parties or even Brayflox speed runs because the ilvl is set to 93+ and I chose to craft and meld an entire set on WHM as opposed to buy soldiery since it is not my main. I've actually sent tells stating I have over 100 levi wins on healer and to drop their ilvl req or invite me and met with rejection. Gearscore, as many anticipated, is the pinnacle of judging and measuring. No longer does it matter at all if you have completed content as long as you are above the ilvl that is all people care about.

[Velhart]

" you stacked two stats instead of one and it's secondary stats were pretty much the same." What? What the hell are you even going on about? Did you even play XI? Just RDM had more stats and gears combinations than all the jobs in this game combined.

Played for 7+ years and yes, the stat system is nothing special. Just like almost every MMO, there was an optimal BiS setup and if you decided to go outside of the comfort zone in parties or didn't meet certain stat requirements, you were considered a gimp. Seen groups not invite a Samurai just because he had a NQ Haubergeon and not a +1.

Game was so well balanced with it's system that it took Puppetmaster and Beastmaster years to finally become relevant in the game.

~~~

Contrary to what some believe in here, and not criticizing horizontal progression, but it would not resolve the issue people are having in here. People griping over BiS and "have to do it this way to be relevant" will always be a thing no matter which way you take it. Vertical progression works for me because I don't feel like spending 7 years going to the same place trying to get certain gear....again. I understand that approach keeps content relevant the years to come. The major difference this time is, unlike FFXI, ARR is packing in new content at a heavy pace and no plans to slow down any time soon (has concept plans all the way to 4.0.) FFXI because of the PS2 limitations, did a lot to milk content for all it's worth. It certainly worked in that regard. ARR's with the amount they offer, keeping content relevant in that regard is more trouble than it is worth. The fact that a lot of the dungeons require going through for the story and mulitple jobs that come out that need to be leveled help keep previous content relevant to an extent. Not to mention, dungeons offer pretty awesome looking vanity that people are always after. Like I said, horizontal to me isn't bad, and if ARR's core was built to help cater to that style, it might work. However, it isn't set up like that and it just isn't going to happen. Color me impressed if it does however!

To SE's credit, they do a vertical progression with a somewhat horizontal approach to it. Like 2.2 released the new tier of gear, while 2.3 opened more options to obtain that tier of gear. Not many MMO's that do that.

You do realize that once everyone else gets sick of how shallow the game is and unsubs that they'll simply shut down the game and then you won't have anything, right? Telling people who are trying to give advice on how the game may be improved to simply "get out" is rude and unhelpful.

Criticism is fine, but people also have the right to agree with the direction SE takes. Heaven forbid people compliment the game or don't agree with the people who constantly cry in here for "change change change". I rather criticize and help improve systems that are currently in place, not tear down the wall and start over like a lot of people want in here. There is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. Dev's don't usually listen to destructive criticism unless it is in fact proven that an aspect of the game makes it completely broken.

KISS is mostly recognized as "Keep It Simple Stupid" - And it is meant to be applied in relation to over complicating things for no reason. Regardless, to apply KISS to a game is often really bad practice. It results in things like FFXIII where the game pretty much played itself and you watched cutscenes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Don't think that is how he meant it. Your example of FFXIII is called the "Press button to win" feature. I believe he was talking about keeping the gameplay simple and let the content itself be the difficult part. Like Mario, all you need to figure out is A is to jump, hold B to run, and direction pad takes you left/right and let the level design itself offer the challenge. If you let mechanics itself become to harder part of the game, you have to balance it with having the content around it eased up.

[Exstal]

Same goes for Aion, never was I shunned from a group or run because I didn't have the right gear or stats or asked what my stats were even. In fact, you could block people from examining your gear all together.

I would shun you if you didn't have the required DPS to warrant your spot. Unless you were a healer, then all you had to be is mildly intelligent. As for blocking your gear, I *hated* that to no end. What a completely, and utterly, worthless feature. All it did was make it so I had to ask people what they were using to join important instances.

You should have been on my server, I'd ask you for that!

Horizontal gearing only worked in Aion because of PvP. If you did anything other than the reasonable stats for PvE; if magic you used Magical Boost, and Magical accuracy; if you were melee crit/acc/attack; if you were healer, whatever you wanted to slot as long as you weren't stupid. PvP stats could be any myriad of stats depending on your playstyle. But even in that regard, some builds were far superior to others. You wouldn't see Clerics stacking HP for PvP lest they get melted by both melee and magic. Tanks wouldn't stack evasion because it was worthless as they couldn't pass natural accuracy on those who would hit them. So it worked in some sense, but only in one aspect of the game and not even remotely in the other.

If they did something like that here, then it would make some ground but this is a PvE game first, Vanity game second, PvP game third. They'd have to pull some FFXI stuff to make it work. I do not like FFXI, they let Ninja become a tank because balance is irrelevant.

[Kazama]

Believe or not one of the big selling points of this game is the hype, hype caused by promo videos and the intriguing expectation Yoshi causes with only 5 words, and this hype can't be just a lie, because it would cause bigger complains than the ones we currently have.

Oh it most certainly is a huge selling point. Unfortunately to go along with that almost nobody has done a revised review almost a year later now so most people go off of those outdated and nearsighted reviews or Reddit feedback. Since we know almost everyone in the Reddit community is more concerned about their screenshot satire, glamours, cosplay and RP that leaves very little insight for new players. Additionally, since the game is targeted at RPG and Console players it is no wonder so many people love the game. Compared to Final Fantasy XIII, XIV is amazingly good.

I understand for newcomers to the genre or even just to the IP it seems spectacular, a non linear RPG with an open world and good story with a real challenge near the end. But id say it takes at least a few years playing MMOs to understand what makes them truly great. Anyone new to the MMO genre I think looks at the game as it currently is and judges it whereas veteran MMO players look at where it is going and that's the big difference. Most of us, casual and hardcore alike love what they have done for the most part. What scares us is where it is heading and if they can redirect the currently grim future we see. That is my opinion at least.