Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

[Velhart]

*Lights torch and hurls pitchfork at Velhart*

Actually I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want people to think I'm saying roll back to 1.x or make this FFXI-2. Both of those games were riddled with issues of their own flavor. What I do think can and should be brought over aren't defining features either. They basically boil down to this: Horizontal gear progression and alternate stat paths to open up antiquated content, some open world danger (Every other MMO has this), some endgame that carries consequence for failure (BCNM) and the same with the story missions (PM Missions). I think every suggestion there would be beneficial for both aisles of this debate.

Not sure if it is something you are wanting, but ARR already kind of has a horizontal system. One patch offering the new tier of content (vertical), then the next patch offering more content to obtain that said tier content (horizontal).

I've always been an advocate for NMs and in 1.x they solved the XI problem. Then they added hunts in ARR and completely broke it again. I don't think hunts are an archaic feature because what they did is add a content that gives a generic reward that everyone and their mom wants. Think about it, Glamours, housing and Chocobo items for the casual/cosmetic crowd. Relic gear for those catching up to endgame. Sands and oils for the progression/hardcore crowd and money for everyone? It was a massive oversight not anticipating that something added for everyone would get overrun and abused and they are taking a ton of public heat for it. They need to stop adding generic farming content and add a little specificity to it. People always bash the "Collect 10 rat pelts" type of quests and for good reason, but that's basically what we have on a large scale, instead it's "collect XXX Tomestones" then do it again.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on what I meant. I meant releasing the NM system as it is without going through modern set ups and testing to make sure it isn't a chaotic mess it is right now. The system as it is right now is a archaic system, but it can be improved. It isn't completely archaic.

The one thing I will criticize though is your comparison of Coils (Savage is pointless) to AV/PW in XI which were ultra endgame and also not launch content. Coils vs. maybe Dynamis? Even that required something like 500k pop item, was 18 man, timed and hard for a lot of people, dropped gear that was viable from 2003 all the way to 2010 and even included a weekly lockout. That's just one comparison that was available at NA launch. There are at least 10 other things that were on the level of coils and every single one of them posed just as much challenge and remained viable all the way until cap increase.

Was more for the sake of example. Dynamis is a more comparable event to raids. However, imagine how long some content in FFXI would be if you could of just kept hitting a DF button to keep going in and trying till you win without the consequence of Level Downs and having to gather the items. FFXI was difficult in that you needed to be highly prepared to take on content, while FFXIV you learn to overcome the content by constantly practicing till you get the flow of the pattern. Difficulty in general can be given in various forms and I don't exactly like to compare the two because they both approach it differently.

I don't mind that they made XIV follow the WoW formula, many Korean MMOs did the same yet still managed to provide a game with much more depth and longevity. If SE weren't completely attached to the subscription model FFXIV would already be free to play. Out of 140 FC members about 1/4 haven't logged in in over a month, 1/4 in 2-3 weeks and the remainder only login 1-2 days a week and the most of them are comprised of FC statics, officers and newer players. Those don't include people who actually said they were leaving, left the FC and quit the game. This is after many left to try ESO and Wildstar and most of them quit those already, a lot of people are giving up on MMOs all together and if FFXIV's expansion doesn't address a lot of things it's looking like I might as well.

That is MMO's in general for you. There is not one game (despite using WoW as a blueprint or not) that people won't play for just a few months then go straight to the next thing. ARR is no exception to this and the development team are fully aware that the numbers would drop after a few months to a more steady pace. Most developers for MMO's anticipate that. Sorry to see that your FC isn't as active, but FC's i'm in or ones I interact with are still going very strong and active.

It isn't to say that ARR is perfect, I have a ton of issues and gripes with it. My main concern with many in here is they want to just tear down the foundation and start over again. It simply isn't happening unless it is proven that the said system is broken. Should be offering feedback to improve on what is there and how to make it a better experience for everyone. Just look on how much has been improved and implemented just from 2.0 to 2.3. Can't wait to see the progress the team has made by 3.0.

[Kazama]

Not sure if it is something you are wanting, but ARR already kind of has a horizontal system. One patch offering the new tier of content (vertical), then the next patch offering more content to obtain that said tier content (horizontal)

By that logic 2.2 offers i110 gear and 2.3 should have also been i110 but it's not. Ramuh is i100 as is Syrcus Tower. Regardless, it doesn't matter because 2.4 will release i115 or i120 causing us to completely re-gear again. In a horizontal progression the system doesn't have you replacing every piece of gear every 3 months. Instead, it may replace a few or a single piece if even. It could even offer no new gear and instead just open up a long quest arc or potentially add new skills along with the other content they provide. Basically, this vertical method they are using requires them to add one new raid every patch and that just isn't sustainable or engaging to most veteran players as it immediately invalidates everything prior to it even for new players. Same with the token system, I just leveled a second account yet I completely skipped CT, Dungeons, First coils and Myth gear almost entirely.

Was more for the sake of example. Dynamis is a more comparable event to raids. However, imagine how long some content in FFXI would be if you could of just kept hitting a DF button to keep going in and trying till you win without the consequence of Level Downs and having to gather the items. FFXI was difficult in that you needed to be highly prepared to take on content, while FFXIV you learn to overcome the content by constantly practicing till you get the flow of the pattern. Difficulty in general can be given in various forms and I don't exactly like to compare the two because they both approach it differently.

Yeah I knew exactly where you were coming from. XI added challenge and difficulty by adding ramifications for failing. Either you had a time limit and a lockout or it required an accumulated entry and if you failed you had to wait or go farm more pop/entry items. I love that method of spacing out content personally. I know this isn't everyone's cup-o-tea, all I am suggesting is a happy medium where it's not endlessly bashing your head against a fight until you win only to have it become antiquated 3 months later.

That is MMO's in general for you. There is not one game (despite using WoW as a blueprint or not) that people won't play for just a few months then go straight to the next thing. ARR is no exception to this and the development team are fully aware that the numbers would drop after a few months to a more steady pace. Most developers for MMO's anticipate that. Sorry to see that your FC isn't as active, but FC's i'm in or ones I interact with are still going very strong and active.

It's one thing to anticipate a hype loss early on in a game sure but to blatantly ignore a large chunk of an already dedicate fanbase is another. It's pretty universally known that customer retention is among the most critical factors in a service driven model yet SE is intent on continuing to draw in more numbers at the cost of existing ones. Most likely to capitalize on the retail cost of the game and as many simultaneous subs as possible for his bosses to see black on their 2014 earnings. Then maybe once they have saturated the market and are forced to change to a retention model we might see more things the players ask for.

Hmm... I really don't see many original Convction members on anymore. At least not the ones I knew from 1.0, maybe they hide? Our FC isn't AS active but it is still active, it's got a lot of very long term XI/XIV 1.x players holding it up still. But, the word around the cooler, many of us are reserving final judgement for 3.0 and if it doesn't resolve at least some of the linearity and overly excessive hand holding it very well may be duty complete for good.

[Hiruke]

The main problem with FFXIV: ARR is that the game seems to be designed with 2 conflicting visions in mind, with no particular thought on how to reconcile the two:

1) We need the ultra casuals.
2) We need the super hardcore.

Things implemented because of 1):

- Combat system pretty shallow and most monsters easily defeated solo with minimal effort, to prevent combat from becoming tedious over time because of difficulty.
- Game filled with fluff like FATEs that have essentially zero challenge. Quality over quantity all the way. Boring.
- No DPS meters implemented to prevent "inciting conflict between players".
- Unable to send tells in dungeons to "prevent harassment".
- Super long, grindy quests implemented to give people who can't clear Coil something to do. Unfortunately, even the casuals hate stuff like atma/animus/novus.
- Echo buffs implemented to allow "differently skilled" players to reach the current tier of content, by nerfing the old content into the ground. Unfortunately, if these players are unable to clear the old content with vastly superior gear (certainly, there was no access to i100/i110 gear for casuals back in the days of Titan HM or even EX), certainly they have NO CHANCE on current contents - goal here is another attempt to make hardcores carry the casuals? Or simply poorly thought out progression pathing?
- Sound and scent agro removed in favor of only using sight agro because "it may be confusing for players". Dev team apprently thinks everyone is crazy stupid? Plus it's all pointless because all field monsters are easily solo'd if of appropriate level.
- Gatherers protected from any monsters by stealth moves, making gathering super easy. As a result, nothing a gatherer can gather is of any real value, until maybe you get into 2 star gathers. 1 star and 2 star nodes only able to be tapped once an hour to artificially limit supply, which seems to have no real effect - everything becomes worthless super quickly anyway.
- Many other uninteresting nerfs to all content across the board to make it so easy (boring) that anyone can do it with zero thought/effort. I'm looking at you, nearly everything (not just FATEs).

Things implemented because of 2):

- Since combat system is shallow, nearly ALL endgame contant is driven purely by mechanics, mostly a plethora of endgame mechanics. Ironically, this makes the game SUPER tedious.
- Savage Coil implemented for the 1%.
- Content with tight DPS checks implemented, requiring a good understand of your role, with no in-game method of checking your performance so you know how to improve or if other people are holding you back, likely inciting all kinds of conflicts in PFs where people have no idea who the awful dps is.
- Content requiring great communication implemented. Since you can't send tells in instances, players are forced to publicly call each other out in party chat, making every suggestion a confrontation.
- 1% drop rates implemented on many vanity items, such as mirrors of the whorl, primal mounts, various minions. Presumably a thinly veiled effort to force hardcores to handhold casuals through content in an effort to get themselves the vanity item, since you'll have to push literally hundreds or THOUSANDS of wins to get the item you want.
- Consciously designed fights to become more punishing if you go outside the script, such as when you push more dps than the fight was designed. To "keep folks from getting bored of content they've been clearing for weeks". Unfortunately, this not only makes fights even more tedious for hardcores, it also defeats the purpose of the Echo buff for casuals and makes content even more challenging as phases are pushed all over the place. Casuals couldn't beat it without Echo, so certainly they won't be able to deal with odd phase shifts on top of all the instant kill mechanics.

---

Personally, I miss things from FFXI like gathering being difficult, due to combat challenge. Some of the most valuable ores were mined in super dangerous areas. You might get killed. Not everyone mined it, because it was dangerous. In this game, gathering points are purely loot pinata.

I also miss (from 1.0, though FFXI had it also) difficult open world monsters. Where you couldn't just stream roll everything. It was also fun that different things had different agro types. Did you know in 1.0 that some monsters detected by scent? And that their scent radius was reduced in the rain? Or you could throw them off your trail by running through a body of water? In 1.0, Castrums were crazy dangerous, which made sense since the empire was our huge enemy. Now you can roll into Castrums solo and wreck the whole thing. Makes you wonder how come the imperials haven't packed up and gone home.

If you really want both casuals and hardcores, you should do one of two things (or both):

- Make content specifically for casuals, and different content for hardcores. This can be as simple as tiering every raid. Have your normal Second Coil, then also your EASY Second Coil. EASY Second Coil drops either nothing, or worse gear, but lets you progress dat story, whereas the NORMAL or SAVAGE Second Coil gets you good gear.

- Do more like what FFXI did: Large raids, that a handful of competents can carry a team full of "differently skilled" players. Great example: Dynamis. You really only needed around 3-6 really good people for Dynamis. As long as everyone else followed their instructions, you were golden. And that content scaled up to 64 people. 6 hardcores carrying 58 casuals is more realistic than pushing casuals through punishing 8 man content where a single mistake costs you the run.

I'm not really sure why everything in the game has to be pathetically easy. I mean, I know it's to "create broad appeal", but I find this way of thinking to be pretty insulting. Even if the game is a little difficult here and there, doesn't mean no one will play it. Your average casual can certainly handle more than what FATEs throw at them, and it's certainly super unfair of you to raise them on trash content like FATEs and then expect them to be able to challenge Primals. What did you do to prepare them for the challenging endgame content? Nothing? I wonder how many will quit thinking it's a fluff game, when they suddenly hit the brick wall that is endgame (in comparison to other contents).

Yoshida has even stated that they are now pushing back the introduction of the "hybrid" (support?) role until sometime after 3.0 (IF EVER), because he wants to "keep it simple" for new players who might be joining at the time of the expansion, even though the entire game was designed with this additional role in mind. Apparently Yoshida thinks you all ust can't handle any kind of difficulty, so he'll just keep jacking up that Echo buff until even the worst players can faceroll everything forever. Enjoy?

[Merylx]

Content requiring great communication implemented. Since you can't send tells in instances, players are forced to publicly call each other out in party chat, making every suggestion a confrontation.

I'm still, after many months, unable to comprehend this. Can someone please enlighten me as to why we still can't send tells during instances? I cannot, for the life of me, find a logical explanation as to why this was even implemented in the first place. We're able to freely talk to people via LS + FC during instances, yet we're unable to send tells...

[Kazama]

I'm still, after many months, unable to comprehend this. Can someone please enlighten me as to why we still can't send tells during instances? I cannot, for the life of me, find a logical explanation as to why this was even implemented in the first place. We're able to freely talk to people via LS + FC during instances, yet we're unable to send tells...

It's actually because of the instance server. Technically speaking you are on another world. It's a really piss poor excuse considering most MMOs use a separate instance server but it's the one they have given.

[Azurak]

Hiruke pretty much summed up why I hate this game and Yoshi. Think about it. He wants to get as many people playing his game so he makes more money for the company. Even if it means making a game that is pathetically easy because he is trying to attract people new to gaming. As a result, the game is an insult to anyone who is familiar with MMOs.

[Giyari]

I remember in beta, the level 15 main story fight, was tough as nails. It took me a while to beat it, but when I did I got a sense of satisfaction.

And now, you could just stand there and wail on it. I knew then, the game was gonna be a cake walk.

I also revall CT was going to be tougher but was toned down.

When did gamers become a bunch of children that need their hand held?

[Estevo]

I really hope that Yoshida changes his mind on the casual catering, making ARR great won't have to do with what crowd you cater to. If you make a truly good game, anybody will find the time to play it, simple as that.

[Renik]

And here we have the real arguement. This isn't about the game being 'too simple' or 'watered down...

You'r hateful posts are popular as always, normal, ppl seems to like drama and trolling in the forums, i don't know if you do this because you really believe in your hate or just to feel like you won a discussion in the forums, it's not like that at all, you are just throwing away your special snowflake syndrome argument as always.

Just gonna say you're wrong, this is not about ffxi, even if i tend to compare and defend it, the truth is i don't have the time to get involved in another FFXI style game, and most ffxi players think the same way. The game is too simple and watered down, this is in fact the real argument. Of course there will always be some ffxi homeless players, and changing the game to please them and only them would be bad, that's not what we are trying to achieve here, we are just looking for a way to please everyone.

PS: i already said in the op that post like yours aren't welcome, move your flame war to another thread, i have seen enough of your posts to know you are not helpful.

Personal attacks will get us nowhere. Please don't assume that because one person doesn't like something that they fall into some demonized category.
That goes for all of us.

You're right, now i feel a bit embarrassed for doing this on my own thread, i just tend to over-defend my position when my opinions are treated on a hateful manner, lets be cool.

Also, yes, what's a gurgler?

[Gramul]

And here we have the real arguement. This isn't about the game being 'too simple' or 'watered down', it's simply because this game is popular and thus, the cynical, jaded and horribly self-entitled 'FFXI/1.0 veterans' as you term yourself are now nothing more than little fish in a very big and crowded pond. Oh boohoo. The sum total of a handful of hipster gamers who pine for the days of Everquest and earlier do not pay game developers' bills. If ARR hadn't been developed to appeal to a wider demographic, then Square Enix would have gone down the gurgler, and would have taken both your beloved FFXIV version 1.0, and FFXI, down with it. And then where would you have all been?

Please don't attack peoples character based on assumption.

You're both frustrated with each other for wanting gameplay you both oppose. But you're not a worse gamer for wanting accessibility, and Zan isn't an egotist for wanting more complex gameplay.
He and many others are frustrated because there really aren't any games that embrace that sort of complexity or depth anymore. Even FF11 is a shell of what it once was. Companies seem to be embracing the same route of appealing to as many people as possible with little change that it's becoming boring and stale for him. In embracing the lowest common, they loose the parts that make them unique and interesting.

Personal attacks will get us nowhere. Please don't assume that because one person doesn't like something that they fall into some demonized category.
That goes for all of us.

Also, what is a gurgler?