PLD - Skills in numbers - Does anyone have any clue?

[Ashkendor]

And it also means that using Provoke into Shield toss is inferior to Provoke into flash / RoH (as RoH does the same amount of enmity as flash when out of combo).

Provoke is a terrible opener, though. The only time I ever open with Provoke is when I need to nab something that's a bit out of Shield Lob range; even then, my hold on it is absolutely nil until I actually hit it with something else, so people have to sit on their hands and not breathe on the mob lest I lose aggro. Provoke doesn't generate enmity. It sets your enmity to the top of the mob's list, but you have to follow up with something else or the DPS/heals will just yank it back off you the second they look at it funny.

Generally speaking, Provoke is for quickly taking back a mob that's been yanked off you. Not to open with.

No, just no man... Opening with voke is useless... You open with lob then flash. bloodbath doesnt add enmity per attack.

Bloodbath heals, so it does add enmity. FoF/Bloodbath macro is killer for securing enmity early on.

[Madotsuki]

I don't recall Bloodbath -ever- adding enmity. Is there data that shows otherwise? Last time I read enmity tests was last fall where it was concluded Bloodbath added no extra enmity outside of buff activation base enmity. Has there been further conclusions from data? Would love to know if so.

[Skull_Angel]

Iirc, only healer based HP restoration generate additional enmity based on amount healed, which extends to xclass Cure/Physick. Tank and DPS HP restoration actions generate no additional enmity outside of the initial buff action activation (which is a set value for all buff actions).

Edit; I don't know if this extends to ACN's Sustain ability.

[Ricon]

Provoke gives enmity equal to the difference between you and the highest enmity on the monster +1. So for a monster with no enmity towards anyone that number is 1. Circle of scorn gives no added enmity at all, I see people talk about CoS like its a badass version of flash when in reality it's just an aoe dot. That being said the dot does build enmity from dmg but please don't be fooled into thinking CoS is going to turn the tide of a situation like flash or even better halone.

[SeraviEdalborez]

Edit; I don't know if this extends to ACN's Sustain ability.

Sustain acts as if the master used Regen on the pet; the amount healed is counted towards master's enmity.

Re: Bloodbath. it does not give extra enmity except for the initial activation, universal to all buffs.

[silvach]

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the damage you deal. Healing has a 0.5x enmity multiplier according to Immut. So, 12.5% of your damage is converted into enmity. With Shield Oath up, that's 20% (using the 1.6x figure). This does not affect Flash.

Also, looking at it, your Fast numbers are totally off. It gets NO enmity multiplier. Also, your Shield Oath numbers don't take the -20% damage penalty into account. So, using your example, the numbers should be:

So with 100str, 100det, 100crt and 30 weapon damage I should do raw:

39.80375412 Fast
55.72525577 Savage
68.99317381 RoH
132.6791804 Flash

Enmity. If it is multiplied by the enmity changers it gives:

39.80375412 Fast (Bloodbath: +4.975 = 44.779, a 12.5% increase)
167.1757673 Savage (Bloodbath: +6.966 = 174.141, a 4.1% increase)
344.9658691 RoH (Bloodbath: +8.624 = 353.590, a 2.5% increase)
132.6791804 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath)

And with Shield Oath:

63.686006592 Fast (Bloodbath: +7.961 = 71.647, a 12.5% increase)
267.48122768 Savage (Bloodbath: +11.146 = 278.627, a 4.1% increase)
551.94539056 RoH (Bloodbath: +13.798 = 565.743, a 2.5% increase)
265.3583608 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath or shield oath penalty)

EDIT: In conclusion, the effect of Bloodbath is negligible at best. We're talking about an enmity change from 883.113 to 916.018, a 3.7% enmity increase, across each combo performed while under Bloodbath. If you use Flash under Bloodbath, the number is even lower.

Thank you for fixing the numbers, I totally forgot about the 20% damage reduction from Shield Oath. My bad.

No, just no man... Opening with voke is useless... You open with lob then flash. bloodbath doesnt add enmity per attack.

Provoke is a terrible opener, though. The only time I ever open with Provoke is when I need to nab something that's a bit out of Shield Lob range; even then, my hold on it is absolutely nil until I actually hit it with something else, so people have to sit on their hands and not breathe on the mob lest I lose aggro. Provoke doesn't generate enmity. It sets your enmity to the top of the mob's list, but you have to follow up with something else or the DPS/heals will just yank it back off you the second they look at it funny.

Generally speaking, Provoke is for quickly taking back a mob that's been yanked off you. Not to open with.



Bloodbath heals, so it does add enmity. FoF/Bloodbath macro is killer for securing enmity early on.

I never said that provoke is a good opener, I just said that Provoke / Flash works better than Provoke / Lob. That's all.

Provoke gives enmity equal to the difference between you and the highest enmity on the monster +1. So for a monster with no enmity towards anyone that number is 1. Circle of scorn gives no added enmity at all, I see people talk about CoS like its a badass version of flash when in reality it's just an aoe dot. That being said the dot does build enmity from dmg but please don't be fooled into thinking CoS is going to turn the tide of a situation like flash or even better halone.

That is what I think exactly. That's why I posted here Paladin Rework an idea to make Overpower cross-class ability. That would make Paladin a lot better when tanking AoE content. I'm utterly disappointed that Warrior is able to hold single target and multi-target AoE without any troubles when we have to struggle with some AoE pulls. I thought at the very beginning of my FFXIV adventure that WAR is just better at AoE but he is inferior to PLD when it comes to holding one target. Nope, I was wrong. In long fights Warrior comes on top of the PLD enmity. That is just not fair.

I know we are more durable in terms of damage reduction, but this is weight by the big HP pool and extra healing received. Damn, they even got some skills to reduce the damage taken as if they had the shield oath up. In the same time there is nothing to weight the superior Warriors ability of establishing aoe hate.

In terms of tanking - in my opinion, PLD is not as good and does not fit as well to every content of the game as Warrior. And on top of that, he is not as fun to play as Warrior.

[Alphras]

Then why do you level a Paladin if you like the Warrior more?

[silvach]

Then why do you level a Paladin if you like the Warrior more?

It's not about who I like less and who I like more. I like Paladin - because of the concept of the class, his story and how does he look. I like to level him up it's just not as "fast' and 'fun' while in dungeons. I should edit my post because I saw the "don't play it then" posts incoming, but this is not the way to deal with the problem (if there is one, maybe I'm just inexperienced and need guiding of how this class is dungeon-wise better when at lvl 50).

Your answer didn't put anything new to the topic and didn't even (in slightest manner) refer to my post - it was just cheap and bad mannered answer. It's not like I should love everything about the class when I chose to play one. Seeing PLD flaws is important as well.

[Alphras]

1. Your whole rant about WAR is off topic.
2. It wasn't "a don't play it then" post, it was a genuine question. No need to be so agressive.
3. You should really play the job that you think is more fun ... it is a game after all.

[silvach]

Ok, let me say that in other words. Lets compare the numbers. As said before, Shield Oathed, 100str, 100det, 100crit, 30weapon damage PLD does:

63.686006592 Fast
267.48122768 Savage
551.94539056 RoH
265.3583608 Flash

enmity.

For Defiance MRD:

59,70563118 Heavy Swing
238,8225247 Skull sunder
557,2525577 Butcher's Block

MRD will do 855,78 enmity in 7,5 second rotation and PLD will do 883,1126248. Add the Maim which can be maintained 100% of the fight (that's why we can count it in (unlike FoF)) MRD will do: 1026,93 enmity.

1T MRD is doing roughly 15% more enmity.
AoE wise there is nothing to compere as MRD just destroys PLD in this matter.

My question is - ain't this seems a little odd that MRD is superior to PLD in 1t and AoE situations? And in what situation PLD fits better than MRD?