macros: bad for DPS?

[Grembo]

What he is saying is that a monks combos will still advance if they are out of position, a dragoon's combos won't advance if they are out of position.

Yeah, that much I know. What i'm saying is that he doesn't 'need' to advance his combo at all if he so chooses.

Not like I can be bothered to do the maths but say this uber macro DRG guy parsed using these two options.

1. Used his Uber macro's for his basic rotation giving him room to keep up with the positional requirements but losing 0.5 - 0.7s per GCD.

2. Totally ignored positional requirements but inputting his full rotation manually.

Those seconds add up yo, macro'ing your basic rotation is a massive loss. In a prolonged fight i'm pretty sure he'd do more DPS with the second option.

[Amberyl]

You basically said "Well DRG has to move for positionals so they're more at risk! MNK doesn't!"

I pointed out that the Dragoon has to move, where a Monk gets to choose to move. I also pointed out that the Dragoon has to take greater risks for the smaller gains, due to their lower survivability. Stop skimming. I know you don't like me having a point, but I do. You're being too general, too dismissive, and too harsh.

Those seconds add up yo, macro'ing your basic rotation is a massive loss. In a prolonged fight i'm pretty sure he'd do more DPS with the second option.

Firstly, if he's hardware automating, there is no time loss, as there is no rounding.

Secondly, no, you're wrong. The Dragoon's damage comes from it's buff/per mob debuff combination. Almost all of the attacks scale with position by a considerable degree. Try solo'ing a mob on a Dragoon that does not pause when you stun it, and you'll see how little damage a Dragoon can muster without it's damage modifiers.

You might as well bring another Paladin.

Do not use Blood for Blood as an example for DRG while neglecting MNK, because they both have access to it.

And Monk mdef is how much higher than the Dragoon's?

[Hali]

I pointed out that the Dragoon has to move, where a Monk gets to choose to move. I also pointed out that the Dragoon has to take greater risks for the smaller gains, due to their lower survivability. Stop skimming. I know you don't like me having a point, but I do. You're being too general, too dismissive, and too harsh.

DRG has as much risk as every single other DPS, if not less so because they can avoid mechanics whilst moving to hit a positional. Stop being bad.

[Dano]

The Dragoon's rotation is linear,

even with a linear combo, in a real fight you are constantly dodging and doing mechanics, that means dropped combos if you are using set macros the instance you move away from the mob, do you manually input the combo to continue? or just restart the macro again?. Also depending on the fight, you might need to delay an action, disengage, do a quickburst, move out of harms way, click on an object..etc. A fixed combo macro just isn't flexible enough imo to perform up to task. but to each their own though, some people can work with macros and not be confused but i personally manual input all my combos, even on dragoon.

[saeedaisspecial]

I pointed out that the Dragoon has to move, where a Monk gets to choose to move. I also pointed out that the Dragoon has to take greater risks for the smaller gains, due to their lower survivability. Stop skimming. I know you don't like me having a point, but I do. You're being too general, too dismissive, and too harsh.

No.
There is no "choosing" when it comes to optimising your DPS. Both jobs need to. Which is what this is all about.
There is no greater risks for smaller gains, because if anything, a MNK moving is a greater risk for a smaller gain. Just look at what both jobs gain/risk.
A MNK moves to gain their positonal advantage. What do they gain by moving and obtaining this positional? They gain a slight potency increase in their damage. What do they lose if they don't obtain positional? They only lose minor potency.
A DRG moves to gain their positonal advantage. What do they gain by moving and obtaining this positional? They the ability to continue their combo and/or the benefits on Heavy Thrust. What do they lose if they don't obtain positional? They cannot combo (and their postional is their best combo) and/or 15% damage.

DRG gains more (not less as you stated) by moving into a positional, you entire argument is backwards. As for the risks, they are equal, because at end game anything deadly to one is deadly to another, most attacks will one shot any unbuffed DPS. Do not use Blood for Blood as an example for DRG while neglecting MNK, because they both have access to it.

I see you hit your post limit, so once again good job on picking out a tiny portion of my post you can reply to, while ignoring the rest.

At this point, I'm honestly done. It's blatant that you have no idea what you're talking about, and you've gone so far off topic that you're the one not answering the original threads question anymore. I really don't know what you hoped to gain by steering the argument this way, but here we are.

[Grembo]

Firstly, if he's hardware automating, there is no time loss, as there is no rounding.

Secondly, no, you're wrong. The Dragoon's damage comes from it's buff/per mob debuff combination. Almost all of the attacks scale with position by a considerable degree. Try solo'ing a mob on a Dragoon that does not pause when you stun it, and you'll see how little damage a Dragoon can muster without it's damage modifiers.

You might as well bring another Paladin.

Any kind of automation will severely impact your DPS. The problems Danorille pointed out will still persist even if your macro's fire off the GCD in time.

...and if your bad enough to choose to do that when it's already been established how much of a DPS loss it can be then you can certainly choose to ignore your positional requirements too.

Almost all of the attacks scale with position by a considerable degree

Just like MNK right?

And Monk mdef is how much higher than the Dragoon's?

Yeah, the ninth time you've mentioned this now and it still has no relevance anywhere in this discussion.

Are you trying to tell us you need higher mdef because you can't move and press keys at the same time? :/

[Odett]

snip

MNK combos can advance without position, but the difference between a MNK who moves and one who does not is very big. As a MNK, to achieve best dps, you NEED to move. Tell me one non-enrage move that is not directed at tanks and that is not a Cleave that will one shot you with BfB active. Even if you BfB before titan stomps or any other forced damage mechanic, you have skills like Bloodbath and Second Wind that you can weave in, which won't hurt your DPS, to sustain yourself. The tank is not the only person in a group who has to mitigate damage. Not paying attention to a monster's hit box is no one's problem but your own. You also don't need 20+ keys, and it only serves to reduce the validity of your argument.

[Illrayth]

woah, this turned into a slug fest.
i think everyone acknowledged quickly, including me in my post (although i should have said DPS Classes/Jobs, not necessarly DPS output), that the macro has less than optimal dps. no one is arguing that in any way shape or form. I also didn't say that having a DPS Rotation macro is the only way a DPS is going to use their abilities. Far from it. 95% of all my abilities used are optimaly used manually.
But a macro to take over on derp moments, movement phases where you've got lag and have to concentrate harder than normal, someone in the room throwing something at the back of your head (IRL distractions), etc.
God no, if you JUST use a macro, thats not smart. but having one to use in some situations is a good thing.
lazy low level dungeons where you dont want to out dps tanks who have poor threat management.macro dps with friends on a casual dungeon lets you type to your party members, crack some jokes, have some fun.

dosn't have to be 100% all the time "go go go" to maximum potential or your a bad player. your high horse wants a rest. get off him.

[Odett]

quote

There will never be a time where a macro will trump correct manual input when it comes to DPS. Part of the challenge and (subjective) fun is knowing how to get back on the horse after a derp moment.

For low level dungeons, I personally like to get them over with as fast as possible. As a tank, I think it's really fun competing with a good DPS because it adds more fun to a run, but if a tank finds it aggravating and is actually using their skills properly, I might target a different mob once I agro one. On the other hand, if it's a "haha riot blade" tank, and I explain to them how to tank better and they don't do it, then I won't have qualms about going all out because accommodating yourself to someone doing a poor job generally breeds bad players.

Some people like to go 100% all the time. They find it fun to test new things on monsters and trying to get the most damage they can, so there's really no high horse to dismount.

[blowfin]

For Bards the 3 in 1 make little to no difference, if you're paying attention, it's actually been tested. Plenty of top tier bards use it and their numbers are right up there. It's even arguable that it's easier to pump out better numbers by not having to manually fire each skill.

Any macro with a <wait> in it for GCD abilities is a massive no-no though.