macros: bad for DPS?

[saeedaisspecial]

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

And that level of micromanagement is incredibly simple compared to a lot of games. So much so that anyone who struggles really has greater concerns than their DPS in a fight.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

They are fundamentally flawed, they may not be as rigid as in game macros, but they are rigid enough that a good player should instantly be able to recognise the disadvantages, that you need to be able to pick and choose when you use each ability. MNK or SMN I would say are the greatest examples of this, where their rotations are rather fluid and change depending on circumstances in the fight, how their debuffs have ticked with interacting with other mechanics of the fight, and so on, a good player realises they need complete control over the actions they perform. That is why macros are inherently bad.

[Amberyl]

That is why macros are inherently bad.

For those classes, yes. I completely agree. But that's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being too general.

[saeedaisspecial]

For those classes, yes. I completely agree. But that's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being too general.

No, it really is a blanket truth. Take a look at your entire argument. The argument that macros help a DPS focus more on the mechanics of the fight because they don't have to worry about their rotation. Okay, sounds cool on paper.
But you just admitted that the most complex classes are worse off using macros. Meaning that if the most complex classes need macros, why do the lesser complex ones? It's really a silly argument you're making.

[Amberyl]

But you just admitted that the most complex classes are worse off using macros.

Sorry, most complex overall, or purely in the variation of their rotation? There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon, has a much higher mdef padding to survive when they are sloppy, and doesn't have anything like the same degree of animation lock.

On a Dragoon, just reaching for that +15% can regularly get you killed, particularly if you have a sloppy tank who doesn't return to position after dodges or interrupts when they should do.

Again, you're being waaaay to general.

[saeedaisspecial]

Sorry, most complex overall, or purely in the variation of their rotation? There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon, has a much higher mdef padding to survive when they are sloppy, and doesn't have anything like the same degree of animation lock.

On a Dragoon, just reaching for that +15% can regularly get you killed, particularly if you have a sloppy tank who doesn't return to position after dodges or interrupts when they should do.

Again, you're being waaaay to general.

You're really, really grasping at straws when you're talking about flaws like that.
How do you get the idea that a MNK doesn't need to move as much? They still all have the same combo interrupting AoEs and mechanics to perform. They even have more positional requirements than a DRG does to maximise their DPS. It sounds as if you've barely played MNK. Oh look, Pugilist 20, I'm right.
The fact you think going for Heavy Thrust is dangerous is frankly hilarious.
You're getting really, really off topic now too. So yeah.

[Amberyl]

You're really, really grasping at straws when you're talking about flaws like that.

Why is it grasping at straws to say one class has lower survivability than another? One punishes you harder for smaller mistakes, one does not. This goes back to you all being way too general, and not listening to the people that have come here to express a point.

Particularly when the ideal you hold them to and judge them against is not as common as you claim.

[saeedaisspecial]

Why is it grasping at straws to say one class has lower survivability than another? One punishes you harder for smaller mistakes, one does not. This goes back to you all being way too general, and not listening to the people that have come here to express a point.

Particularly when the ideal you hold them to and judge them against is not as common as you claim.

You're generalising too. You basically said "Well DRG has to move for positionals so they're more at risk! MNK doesn't!" When actually, a MNK does have to move for positionals, maybe not to get their combo, but they sure as hell do if they want to maximise DPS, which is what this discussion was all about in the first place. You're picking and choosing your arguments to tailor your needs. You're proving it all the time with how you quote specific parts of my post to attack, whilst ignoring the rest, which you've been doing for pages.

This entire thread was about whether or not macros affected DPS, and the answer was a resounding yes. I'm still here, trying to explain that reasoning, with a lot of reasons. I'm not "not listening to the people that come here to express a point" at all.

he can't do that if he's dead while fumbling with the 20+ keys he needs.

lol.
Exaggerations like that sure make your point valid.

[Grembo]

There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon

Need?

You can choose to not move at all with both MNK and DRG, sure your rotation will be sub optimal but if your the kind of guy that has to macro his basic rotation because moving at the same time is too complex then the loss in dps is hardly gonna bother you, aye.

[Mcshiggs]

Need?

You can choose to not move at all with both MNK and DRG, sure your rotation will be sub optimal but if your the kind of guy that has to macro his basic rotation because moving at the same time is too complex then the loss in dps is hardly gonna bother you, aye.

What he is saying is that a monks combos will still advance if they are out of position, a dragoon's combos won't advance if they are out of position.

[Amberyl]

What he is saying is that a monks combos will still advance if they are out of position, a dragoon's combos won't advance if they are out of position.

This.

But also, Monks can take greater risks to reach position, with a lower damage penalty to get there. If Blood for Blood is up on a Dragoon, many bosses will one shot you if your healers aren't on the ball. Which is both unfair to the healer, and a drain on the group. A Dragoon is worth little more than 10% to the Bard if he can't keep his rotation up, and he can't do that if he's dead while fumbling with the 20+ keys he needs.