macros: bad for DPS?

[Amberyl]

It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

[saeedaisspecial]

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

And that level of micromanagement is incredibly simple compared to a lot of games. So much so that anyone who struggles really has greater concerns than their DPS in a fight.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

They are fundamentally flawed, they may not be as rigid as in game macros, but they are rigid enough that a good player should instantly be able to recognise the disadvantages, that you need to be able to pick and choose when you use each ability. MNK or SMN I would say are the greatest examples of this, where their rotations are rather fluid and change depending on circumstances in the fight, how their debuffs have ticked with interacting with other mechanics of the fight, and so on, a good player realises they need complete control over the actions they perform. That is why macros are inherently bad.

[Amberyl]

That is why macros are inherently bad.

For those classes, yes. I completely agree. But that's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being too general.

[saeedaisspecial]

For those classes, yes. I completely agree. But that's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being too general.

No, it really is a blanket truth. Take a look at your entire argument. The argument that macros help a DPS focus more on the mechanics of the fight because they don't have to worry about their rotation. Okay, sounds cool on paper.
But you just admitted that the most complex classes are worse off using macros. Meaning that if the most complex classes need macros, why do the lesser complex ones? It's really a silly argument you're making.

[Amberyl]

But you just admitted that the most complex classes are worse off using macros.

Sorry, most complex overall, or purely in the variation of their rotation? There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon, has a much higher mdef padding to survive when they are sloppy, and doesn't have anything like the same degree of animation lock.

On a Dragoon, just reaching for that +15% can regularly get you killed, particularly if you have a sloppy tank who doesn't return to position after dodges or interrupts when they should do.

Again, you're being waaaay to general.

[saeedaisspecial]

Sorry, most complex overall, or purely in the variation of their rotation? There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon, has a much higher mdef padding to survive when they are sloppy, and doesn't have anything like the same degree of animation lock.

On a Dragoon, just reaching for that +15% can regularly get you killed, particularly if you have a sloppy tank who doesn't return to position after dodges or interrupts when they should do.

Again, you're being waaaay to general.

You're really, really grasping at straws when you're talking about flaws like that.
How do you get the idea that a MNK doesn't need to move as much? They still all have the same combo interrupting AoEs and mechanics to perform. They even have more positional requirements than a DRG does to maximise their DPS. It sounds as if you've barely played MNK. Oh look, Pugilist 20, I'm right.
The fact you think going for Heavy Thrust is dangerous is frankly hilarious.
You're getting really, really off topic now too. So yeah.

[Amberyl]

You're really, really grasping at straws when you're talking about flaws like that.

Why is it grasping at straws to say one class has lower survivability than another? One punishes you harder for smaller mistakes, one does not. This goes back to you all being way too general, and not listening to the people that have come here to express a point.

Particularly when the ideal you hold them to and judge them against is not as common as you claim.

[Grembo]

There's a distinction. A Monk does not need to move anywhere near as much as a Dragoon

Need?

You can choose to not move at all with both MNK and DRG, sure your rotation will be sub optimal but if your the kind of guy that has to macro his basic rotation because moving at the same time is too complex then the loss in dps is hardly gonna bother you, aye.

[Mcshiggs]

Need?

You can choose to not move at all with both MNK and DRG, sure your rotation will be sub optimal but if your the kind of guy that has to macro his basic rotation because moving at the same time is too complex then the loss in dps is hardly gonna bother you, aye.

What he is saying is that a monks combos will still advance if they are out of position, a dragoon's combos won't advance if they are out of position.

[Hali]

On a Dragoon, just reaching for that +15% can regularly get you killed

Anyone who mains DRG in the EG scene will laugh at such a comment. The only problem with a 'sloppy tank' is actually getting the positional hit off.

If Blood for Blood is up on a Dragoon, many bosses will one shot you if your healers aren't on the ball.

Paying attention to hit markers is hard.