macros: bad for DPS?

[TheMax1087]

Word play and semantics. If the ideal were so achievable, then companies like Razer wouldn't have a market for their £200 MMO-geared keyboards.

Incase you couldnt tell by the content of my post, i play with a controller(even though i play on pc), so razer having a £200 MMO-geared keyboard has no bearing on me at all.

As for no top-tier players using then? That's outright ignorance, I'm afraid. You're kidding yourself, sorry.

Saeed specifically said "No top tier player will min/max using any sort of macros.", min/maxing being the whole point of the macro vs no macro debate. I know you are trolling in this topic, but the very first post has a vid of someone doing the same rotation side by side losing dps by using macros.

[Amberyl]

...but the very first post has a vid of someone doing the same rotation side by side losing dps by using macros.

Now do that on a mouse or keyboard with two decimal place accuracy to their driver-based/hardware-based macros, and tell me it will be less. Read my posts, perhaps, rather than just spewing venom at them. Top tier players using hardware macros do exist. I've sat and listened to many on vent and ts, and what they're doing is extremely easy to replicate with inexpensive, widely available hardware. They are not being banned for their behaviour, so why are players adhering to TOS who only use the client to macro, still being penalised?

You can't claim the top tier are some idyllic group of players who only ever do things manually, because this simply isn't a blanket truth.

[saeedaisspecial]

You can't claim the top tier are some idyllic group of players who only ever do things manually, because this simply isn't a blanket truth.

You're posting about idyllic situations. How do I know high end players don't do this? Because this isn't a a game where everything can be perfectly calculated to run smoothly with a macro.
The "ideal" rotations in this game have been perfectly timed and calculated by players to get maximum uptime/DPS. They work perfectly on dummies, but not against encounters with monsters, because of AoEs that need to be dodged, adds that need to be killed, phases that require holding DPS.
You need to be flexible enough in combat to account for such things, there's a reason we haven't automated everything in life, because human judgement needs to be made.
Say you're in a fight, you have to dodge some AoEs and stuff, you start to fall behind in the "perfect" rotation, you need to make adjustments to make sure nothing drops off. Limiting yourself to a rigid macro is not going to allow you to work around these changes that need to be made.
Smart, high end players realise this. Nothing in this game requires so much focus that automation is necessary. There's a reason high end players are high end, because they can do it all. Go look at other games, where high end players in games such as starcraft are hitting insane amounts of actions per minute, and are still able to focus and plan out a game to victory.

[Amberyl]

How about addressing the points I make instead of strawman-ing me.

Sorry, just got up and missed your post.

Say you're in a fight, you have to dodge some AoEs and stuff, you start to fall behind in the "perfect" rotation, you need to make adjustments to make sure nothing drops off. Limiting yourself to a rigid macro is not going to allow you to work around these changes that need to be made.

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

[saeedaisspecial]

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

Sure, they can be paused, and resumed, and even restarted mid way through, but they aren't as flexible as simply just inputting the commands yourself and that is the inherent flaw, anyone smart would realise this. It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

Actually, I just realised your entire argument was "Well, it allows DPS to perform their actions and still be able to focus on dodging mechanics!" Which is ludicrous, since a high end player by sheer virtue of being a high end player does not need to do this, as they can multi-task and are playing at well, the high end. This game isn't that hard that multi-tasking is difficult.

[Amberyl]

It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

[saeedaisspecial]

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

And that level of micromanagement is incredibly simple compared to a lot of games. So much so that anyone who struggles really has greater concerns than their DPS in a fight.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

They are fundamentally flawed, they may not be as rigid as in game macros, but they are rigid enough that a good player should instantly be able to recognise the disadvantages, that you need to be able to pick and choose when you use each ability. MNK or SMN I would say are the greatest examples of this, where their rotations are rather fluid and change depending on circumstances in the fight, how their debuffs have ticked with interacting with other mechanics of the fight, and so on, a good player realises they need complete control over the actions they perform. That is why macros are inherently bad.

[TheMax1087]

Read my posts

I've been reading your posts, it's obvious from them that you aren't reading the topic though(or you have been reading it and are being intentionally dense as your trolling mechanism), as you keep bringing up hardware macros when the topic is obviously about ingame ones.

[Amberyl]

I've been reading your posts, it's obvious from them that you aren't reading the topic though(or you have been reading it and are being intentionally dense as your trolling mechanism), as you keep bringing up hardware macros when the topic is obviously about ingame ones.

It's relevant and valid, stop stooping to personal insults or you'll get the thread closed.

Saeed is asserting that no good player would macro, when the truth of the matter is different. Plenty of good players macro, they just don't do it legitimately, which defeats the point of the current crippled system. His suggestion that the ideal of manually inputting everything with high precision is generally achievable, and that therefore only poor players macro, is both invalid and unfair, since many of the people he will be using as a counter-example simply aren't telling anyone what they're doing. (Although as I mentioned, many do, and show other players how to do it.)

[saeedaisspecial]

It's relevant and valid, stop stooping to personal insults or you'll get the thread closed.

Saeed is asserting that no good player would macro, when the truth of the matter is different. Plenty of good players macro, they just don't do it legitimately, which defeats the point of the current crippled system. His suggestion that the ideal of manually inputting everything with high precision is generally achievable, and that therefore only poor players macro, is both invalid and unfair, since many of the people he will be using as a counter-example simply aren't telling anyone what they're doing. (Although as I mentioned, many do, and show other players how to do it.)

How about addressing the points I make instead of strawman-ing me.