Are the Primals really Primals?

[Morningstar1337]

Okay so I wnat to know what Eorzia in generla thinks of the Primals. Should they be destroyed? Should Primals exist on any lane of existence? and can a person attain Apoptheosis and become a Primal? And what are the Beast tribe's opinions on their respective primals (I think i know the Amal'ja's [possible sic, Fantasy names do not register on spellcheck unless they're old enough] and Sylph's opinions But I need to double check)

[LineageRazor]

Every day, this makes more sense. And it fills me with glee.

I want to Ishgardian's to summon her so bad it hurts.

Not me - I want the Primals and the gods worshiped by the player races to be distinct.

That way, in future expansions, we can have scenarios where rogue factions of the player races start summoning their OWN gods to counter the threat of the beastmen gods. These rogue factions, of course, must be stopped, but naturally we'll consistently fail to stop them before they manage to summon their deities - which gives us a whole new pantheon of deities to beat the crap outta.

As a Paladin that worships Nophica, I wanna use Rage of Halone ON Halone.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

I am really glad Razor brought up the Twelve, because this is something I've been toying with for a while...

What if the entities the beast tribes know as Primals and the entities that the people of the city-states know as the Twelve are not actually distinct beings?

We've seen that the Twelve can be summoned into this world through prayer (yours and Louisoux's pupils') and sufficient empowerment (there's a recent Lore Train entry where Fernehawles all but explicitly refers to Louisoux' staff as a "Key"). Gaius says much the same:

Why not repeat the trick that worked so well at Carterneaux and call them down? They will answer... so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether.

(cont.)

[Brine_Gildchaff]

There's even a degree to which the primals we've seen match up with members of the Twelve, though not with their aetherial alignment. Rhalgr, whose summoning we actually stop during the MSQ, is so close to Ifrit they could be brothers. Lymlaen rules over the seas and navigation; in other words, she is responsible for the safety of all that live in the sea and all that sail across it (sound familiar?). Llymlaen's symbol is even the wave, the signature assault of a certain someone. Likewise, Thaliak is depicted as a scholar wielding a staff of ash (ash is a tree) and he rules over rivers (nothing is more important to a forest than the rivers that run through it). Halone's similarities to Shiva are obvious, even more so when you review the Defenders of Eorzea trailer and notice that Shiva wields a round shield.

The other two are trickier (Nophica<->Titan?) but the principle seems solid enough...

[Enkidoh]

There's even a degree to which the primals we've seen match up with members of the Twelve, though not with their aetherial alignment. Rhalgr, whose summoning we actually stop during the MSQ, is so close to Ifrit they could be brothers. Lymlaen rules over the seas and navigation; in other words, she is responsible for the safety of all that live in the sea and all that sail across it (sound familiar?). Llymlaen's symbol is even the wave, the signature assault of a certain someone. Likewise, Thaliak is depicted as a scholar wielding a staff of ash (ash is a tree) and he rules over rivers (nothing is more important to a forest than the rivers that run through it). Halone's similarities to Shiva are obvious, even more so when you review the Defenders of Eorzea trailer and notice that Shiva wields a round shield.

The other two are trickier (Nophica<->Titan?) but the principle seems solid enough...

Someone mentioned this earlier but it's worth repeating again - on the surface that seems the case but after juxtaposing the Primals with the Twelve again and after thinking about it, that idea just doesn't add up, specifically when looking at it from an elemental alignment.

The Ifrit-Rhalgr comparison for example, doesn't work, as Ifrit is fire elemental while Rhalgr is lightning elemental (the two fire elemental members of the Twelve are Nald'thal and Azeyma). Likewise with Leviathan and Lymlean - Leviathan is water elemental while Lymlaen is actually wind aligned. Also given the general stories of the Twelve is as much removed from the Primals as you can get (for instance, Nophica is essentially a goddess of fertility and farming, not exactly the same as the stern, elderly sylphic god of thunder Ramuh is it?) so the Primal-Twelve comparison doesn't hold water to me really.

Personally, although it's an interesting comparison to draw, I'm more liable to simply apply Occam's Razor to this idea and just take it as nothing but coincidence (and the Shiva-elezen pic nothing but a red herring planted by Ferne deliberately to get us lore nerds discussing this. ). Or I could be totally, horribly wrong - in which case it will probably result in me going mad from the revelation and running around Gridania shouting gibberish with my subligar on my head.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

The Ifrit-Rhalgr comparison for example, doesn't work, as Ifrit is fire elemental while Rhalgr is lightning elemental (the two fire elemental members of the Twelve are Nald'thal and Azeyma).

One of the main problems with this theory, yes. But consider the tribes that are summoning them; might not the fact that this aspect of (whatever being we know as Rhalgr and they know as Ifrit) is being conjured forth by Amalj'aa using fire-aspected crystals be enough to shift alignment? It also seems rather odd to me that the god that oversees the ocean and navigation, and whose symbol is a breaking wave, is wind-aspected, could we actually have things wrong ourselves? (For that matter, why on earth would a god of time be earth-aspected, or indeed have any element?) So I suppose part of what I'm proposing is that the Eorzeans and the beast tribes have two sets of legends that are talking about the same being, both of which have been shaped by time.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

Also given the general stories of the Twelve is as much removed from the Primals as you can get (for instance, Nophica is essentially a goddess of fertility and farming, not exactly the same as the stern, elderly sylphic god of thunder Ramuh is it?) so the Primal-Twelve comparison doesn't hold water to me really.

Well, yes, which is why I'm more proposing that, for example, Leviathan and Llymlaen are two different aspects of the same being, viewed through two different lenses. Llymlaen is the protective aspect, that which guides sailors across oceans and nourishes the life within them, while Leviathan is the active, aggressive aspect, the power of the ocean to drown and destroy.

[Catapult]

If we were to entertain the idea that all the elemental primals find an embodiment in one of the Twelve, I suspect we'd be looking at some more significant pairings.

Ifrit would represent Azeyma, the Warden, goddess of the sun from which she emerges.
(gender is of little significance to the Amalj'aa, so a female could easily be a Lord in their eyes)

Garuda could be easily tied to Llymlaen, Goddess of Navigation, who fills the sails of merchant vessels, much like she gives the Ixal's balloons the power to defy regular wind currents.

Titan is easily a representation of Althyk, the Keeper, who is the father of the pantheon and protector of his realm. The Kobolds bow to him in such suitable reverence.

Ramuh is the spitting image of Rhalgr, the Destroyer, a magi with a staff of bronze. As patron of Ala Mhigo, he defends his city in the inevitables times of war. And to the Sylph, he is also fiercely protective and will not hesitate to pass his Judgement Bolt against would-be invaders.

Shiva appears as a fierce warrior princess branding sword and shield, deeply reminiscent of Halone the Fury and her iconic greatshield.

Odin may find a representation in Oschon the Wanderer as he roams the wood. Belias may represent Nald'thal, the Traders given Tristan's propensity to trade his life in with Belias.

Only Leviathan is harder to place. One might offer a resemblance to the weaving threads of Nymeia as the sea beast curves through the waves. Or perhaps to Thaliak, who is master of the Rivers. Yet neither has a solid connection without breaking elemental alignment (and even then, I can't find a match).
It is here that the theory breaks down.

[Enkidoh]

Well, I still hold to the belief that the Primal=Twelve idea is nothing but coincidence, but your comparison does actually work Catapult. And even though it's definitely veering into darksteelfoil hat territory, it starts to make sense when you remember the old Eorzea creation story first stated back in 1.0's early development - you know, about how during the Age of the Gods the Twelve apparently co-existed on Eorzea with the 'early tribes' - an idea which fell apart when it was revealed none of the five races actually originated in Eorzea (even if you take the idea of gods coexisting with mortals in a physical world seriously).

However, when you think of the 'tribes' line as actually referring to the beastmen and not the five races... suddenly... it all makes sense. And especially as Ferne revealed that little morsel a while ago about the Twelve possibly "not actually being a form we're expecting them to be"....

Hmmm.... what was that about 'going mad from the revelation'? DON'T MIND IF I DOOO!!! *loses sanity*

[Akoree]

Well, if you bring Odin into the mix then you also have to account for Bahamut. From the ritual used to try to seal him, we can come up with this:

1- Elder Primals simply cannot be part of the "Primals are the Twelve" theory, despite the ritual failing I doubt Bahamut would lend his power to people trying to seal him away.

2- The twelve are willing to lend their powers to the player races of Eorzea in order to fight the Primals which is contrary to their goals and nature as I think they'd rather just wipe "us" out.

3- The twelve themselves cannot be fully summonned, all we see from them are symbols, whereas the Primals can hardly be anything BUT their shape. When they escape the seal, they already have their shape. When you summon Egis, even a small portion of their essence has similar features to them. I also don't remember seeing an NPC who had actually seen or even heard stories of people seeing the Twelve but I could be wrong about that.