Are the Primals really Primals?

[Kicha]

I got this idea reading a few other threads about Primals and how they had personalities in 1.0 and now the Primals being summoned in 2.0 seem to be more blank slates who just show up and wreck stuff. So this is basically just a theory, and my first attempt at lorecraft so please bear with me.

What if the Primals being summoned now in 2.0+ are not the actual Primals but simply a rudimentary imitation of their actual selves. We're told that the Primals are manifested through a cache of crystals and the will of the believers that summon it, and if I remember correctly, it was the Ascians who taught the beastmen how to summon them in this way. The summoning ritual can basically be used for anything, as we saw with King Moggle Mog. If King Mog wasn't a Primal, but was summoned in exactly the same way as the Primals (manifestation of will focused by crystals) could it not be that the Beastmen Primals that are being summoned are also not the true Primals but simply manifestations of the will of the followers who summoned them?
If this is true, then that means that we have not actually met Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, and Leviathan, but rather the fake versions of them willed into existence by the Beastmen. I think this would lend credence to the Ascians plan to drain the aether of the world to bring about a dark age. So then what are the true Primals? Will we ever meet them? Is this why Summoners can only create Egis? Because they are summoning a copy of a copy? Will Summoner later be able to summon a real Primal after we meet their true versions?

[Enkidoh]

That's a very interesting idea, but the information given in the game makes it quite clear that despite having similarities, there is actually a clear distinction between Primals like Ifrit, and 'aetheric entities' like Good King Moggle Mog. The former are pretty much essences that have always existed, formless and incorporeal within the aether. Aetheric entities on the other hand, are pretty much just a will made manifest - an abstract idea given physical form, which is pretty much what you're describing. They never existed in the same way as Primals have - they're basically just an image that has been willed into existence through aether and crystals.

Minfilia explains what a Primal really is, the process of summoning, and how they can be easily resummoned again and again despite being constantly defeated early on in the storyline after joining the Scions of the Seventh Dawn:

Thancred: "Having manifested in the physical realm, Primals must consume aether if they are to maintain their presence here. And the stronger they become, the more aether they require."
Thancred: "Now aether exists throughout all creation. If flows through all life and permeates the very air that we breathe."
Thancred: "Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether - crystals."
Minfilia: "It is for this reason that incidents involving crystals can often be traced back to a Primal."
Thancred: "Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how Primals are born."
Thancred: "When all is well with the world, Primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether."
Minfilia: "However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the Primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering."
Minfilia: "These cries serve as a beacon toward which a Primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together - or 'aetheric coalescence' - which grants the beings physical form."
Minfilia: "Once born, a Primal gains strength from it's followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes."

As for what constitutes an 'aetheric entity' and it's difference from a Primal, Yda and Papalymo along with Y'shtola and Kan-E-Senna mention the difference just prior to fighting Good King Moggle Mog the XIIth:

Kan-E-Senna: "It is our belief that Good King Moggle Mog the XIIth is a myth made manifest via means akin to those employed by the beast tribes in the summoning of their gods."
Yda: "Waaait... You're saying a handful of moogles with a boatload of crystals wished really, really hard, and he just sort of appeared?... Would that even work?"

And a short time later:

Papalymo: "Hmm, we cannot discount the possibility that this... entity is influencing the moogles in a manner similar to that of a Primal."

And immediately after

defeating him in the Thornmarch,

there's this bit of dialogue:

Kuplo Kopp: "Perhaps now they'll come to their senses and stop playing at faerie tales. Rest assured the chieftain will have choice words for them too!"

And after returning to

the Lotus Stand:

Papalymo: "By Louisoix's definition, the late King Moggle Mog XII was indeed a Primal. But how can that be? It defies all precedent."

And

Yda: "The King really is a Primal..."
Yda: "But he really isn't, is he? I mean, the moogles don't worship him, for one thing-he's not even a god to them! That doesn't sound like any Primal I've ever heard of."
Papalymo: "Then mayhap the fault lies with the definition. The fact remains that through a combination of the power contained in crystals and the force of their collective faith, the moogles called forth a being that by rights should not exist. Moreover, when slain, said being left no corpse - the aether which comprised him scattered to the four winds."
Kan-E-Senna: "According to the accepted definition, he may not be a Primal... but the mode of his manifestation was in every respect the same."

Of course the Garlean Empire did not differentiate the two, grouping them together under the derogatory term 'eikon', but from information given by Thancred, Minfilia, Y'shtola and others, the two entities are actually different.

[Akujin]

Essentially, by the sound of it, there are two things here.

Primals are Elemental based beings, each of the Beastmen's Primal attributes itself to a specific Element - Fire, Wind, Earth, Water (eventually Lightning, Ice). The Primals also do not look like their Beastmen, not truly. While Ifrit is lizard'ish, he is thinner, elongated, more demonic in a respect than Amalj'aa, Titan is a hulking earth-composed beast, Garuda has feathers, but the Ixali actually, do not. Leviathan does have scales/fins, which the Sahagan do have, but is still more of a serpent than a humanoid creature, as Garuda and Titan are.

Mog King, however, looks exactly like the Moogles themselves. It represents them as their Primal because their wish is one of their own kinship to be their salvation.

Why do the Elemental Primals take on their respective forms? No idea.

Which leads me to also believe that if/when the Dragons are revealed to have a Primal as well, I sincerely doubt it'll be Bahamut, as it would be too similar, granted Bahamut has also always been attributed to being non-elemental, so perhaps that would still work.

Going along this same thought - I could see them going as far as having Ishgard summon something akin to the Knights of the Round at some point, non-elemental, representing themselves in a sense, in a sense still Holy or simply righteous. That fight, if it ever happened, would make the Mog King fight look like cake. lol

While I won't go into details, because I don't know who else gleans information from external sites, but a recent discovery was found in the files from 2.2 that showed what is likely a new beastmen tribe coming in the future. Which, if they are attuned to say, Shiva for instance, do not look like her - at all -. Which furthers the point that Elemental Primals are not represented by their worshippers, but are instead given a form which they themselves favor instead. Why exactly, who can say, except the lore masters themselves.

Your original question, regarding whether the Primals we face now, are truly the Primals, or simply representing them is still plausible. While the naming is different, it can also go back to the way the names were used in XI. Avatars. An Avatar of a deity is not the deity itself, but a projection of its astral self into the physical world. Lessened, considerably, from it's true power because if a deity actually stepped down on the same world as mortals, it would likely have disastrous repercussions. Likewise, these Primals, may simply be Avatars of their true selves, sustained by the power of aether/crystals/blood sacrifice, but still not their actual selves. To fight the actual Primal itself, at its own "full power", would likely require going into a semi incorporeal space. I think of it as a divide, the corporal/material world we're in, then the incorporeal/aetherial world that permeates through our own, giving sustenance to the land, the air, but also the means that Primals have of emerging into our own world, while still remaining outside of it. Which can be partly why they are able to be returned so often, until their actual cores are disrupted, they can return again, granted each time requires more and more power to do so.

Also consider, essentially all 'aethereal' is, is 'ethereal'. As the word 'aethereal' does not get used anymore. So the idea that they would use similar concepts of a prime material (physical world) and ethereal (spiritual world) is not far fetched. It may also lend to the fact that the reason they chose Primal, as the choice title to these beings, is because they are taking a physical form of themselves from the Aether, but it does not mean it is themselves, fully.

[Leaf_Dragoon]

I think after beating Ifrit extreme the two ascians refer the primals you defeated as avatars.

[Empressia]

It would seem that there are "TIERS" of primals regarding their powers, manifestation and dependence on energy to summon them hence,

tier 0 : "Mother" Hydaelyn and her alter ego, "Father" Zodiarc
tier 1 : Elder Primals, aka Odin n Bahamut
tier 2 : Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva
tier 3 : King Mog XIII

*tier 0 seems to switched sides depending on the amount of aether present, if it drained, Hydaelyn may enter a hibernation state, and waking Zodiarc until the aether amount reached the minimum level to wake Hydaelyn and put Zodiarc to sleep. Thus balance between light and darkness. The real question is not about can Ascian be considered as the worshippers of Zodiarc but if its possible to cycle the balance NATURALLY without a third party trying to speed up the cycle? If the natural cycle didn't involved third party scumbags, then our toons can exterminate the Ascians forever; unless they're part of the natural cycling and the battle rages on for eternity

*tier 1 seems to be have a personality of their own. doesn't have followers or worshippers (excluding Nael since he's worshipping Dalamud not Bahamut; i won't go to the other debate about Dalamud is the Allagan word for Bahamut) and they manifested without crystals

*tier 2 seems to take personality to whatever quality their worshippers have in common (Ifrit have a prideful personality as Amalja'a does), MUST HAVE followers or worshippers to sustain their ties to the physical world before they "slide" into the aetheric world, and they need crystals as some sort of a ticket to enter pysical world

*tier 3 seems to have personality based on the expected image of their worshippers, must have imagining followers or worshippers to mold the shape of its physical entity and need crystal as a catalyst to empower their idea

[Kicha]

I really like the idea of Tiered or ranked Primals. I'm not so sure about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals, unless by ranking them as 0 you mean to say that they are the source of the other primals manifesting (ie. the other primals would not be possible without Hydaelyn and Zodiark). Is there truly a way to kill a primals then? We know that they can be sealed away, but can they actually be killed permanently?
Also, this makes me wonder also about the opening cinematic from 1.0. When the Agrias crashed into Silvertear Lake, we see a whole lot of primals being released. The ones they show us that we can recognize are Ifrit and Titan, but what about all those other streaks of light. Were all the Tier 2 primals locked away in Silvertear? We know where Odin and Bahamut were sealed and broke out from, so where did all those others come from? And where did they go for that matter?
I'm interested in what you all think the other primals released from Silvertear are.

[Kaiser-Ace]

@Akujin
Sounds alot like a fusion of the Multiverse and Phantom Plains theorys in which there are multiple levels of ovelaping existance and a being in one plain can not simply interacte with a being on anouther with out a medium. Basically with out their worshipers the primals can't actually exist in our plain of Eorzia to interact with us.

[Morningstar1337]

I really like the idea of Tiered or ranked Primals. I'm not so sure about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals, unless by ranking them as 0 you mean to say that they are the source of the other primals manifesting (ie. the other primals would not be possible without Hydaelyn and Zodiark).

I have this theory that Hydalelyn and Zodiark actuary are primals and that the Echo is a watered down tempering. This can also explain exactly why those with the echo cannot be tempered, because they already are, they just don't know it and it doesn't drive them to fundamentalism or becoming a puppet to the primal who tempered them (in this case Hydaelym.) Think Dragon Quest VIII (incoming spoilers) where the protagonist was cursed during infancy, resulting to him being immune to other curses such as the one that turned most the inhabitants of his home into plants.

There are some holes, such as "How did she touch them?", but it's a start

[Toranja]

Garuda has feathers, but the Ixali actually, do not.

The Ixali have feathers. They simply lost the ability to fly. They have since used balloons.
The feathers are also very vibrant in colour in those who haven't been tempered with.


When they summon a Primal, they are channelling the actual essence. Prayers act as a beacon to a particular Primal. The summoned Primal comes with memories, personality and privy knowledge.

These summoned Gods are, however, far too alike the minds that summoned them for my taste. Or, perhaps, it is more reasonable to turn that phrase and say those who have been tempered become more like their deity.


The Elder Primals are odd. We have not seen them being summoned. We saw them being released. They also don't seem to require prayer to subsist. What does Bahamut want, anyway?


Mog is an aetheric doll that can move and speak.

[Catapult]

Going along this same thought - I could see them going as far as having Ishgard summon something akin to the Knights of the Round at some point, non-elemental, representing themselves in a sense, in a sense still Holy or simply righteous. That fight, if it ever happened, would make the Mog King fight look like cake. lol

No, if there is one thing characteristic of Ishgardians, it is their devotion to Halone, the Fury. If the Archbishop of the Holy Sea ever sought to summon anything forth in their defence, it would be this warrior maiden associated with the first moon (astral ice) of the Eorzean Calendar.

I wonder who that could be?

I can't think of any event more fitting that leads to them opening their gates.