NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[MartaDemireux]

Ok, people really need to stop using "always" when they say ONLY IN FFXI. Which is technically wrong too since STR and its effect on Attack had a far greater impact on calculating damage than DEX.
And in FFXI, AGI (Which our DEX is far closer to) was useful only for Trick attack, and ONE WS for Dagger or Katana.

And in EVERY offline game, Strength improved attack power, thus physical damage. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

I'm talking about the Rogue/Thief/Ninja archetype on the whole in every video game series ever. Not just FF.


For FF examples:

FFI-VIII, X-2, XII: FF's with an ATB it is usually referred to as Speed but sometimes also Agility or Dexterity. The more you have the faster it fills. The faster it fills the more attacks you get in. The more attacks you get in the more damage you deal. Thieves had the most of it.

FFIX: Zidane's Thievery does more damage depending on how much speed you have.

FFX: Determines how often you get a turn.

FFXI: As you said DEX calculates Sneak Attack and AGI calculates Trick Attack. However DEX was used to calculate nearly every dagger weaponskill. DEX was the only stat to use on dagger weaponskills. It also effected critical hit rate which was important there.

Non-FF Examples:

Bravely Default: DEX affects accuracy and brave attack rate. AGI affects evasion, how many hits you get in one attack, turn order and first strike rate. Thief also gets an ability which converts all of its speed (based from AGI) into an attack.

WoW: AGI increases ranged attack damage as well as melee attack damage for Rogues (also shamans and bear/cat form druids). Also increases critical hit rate and dodge rate.

Rift: Warriors and Rogues gain attack damage from dexterity but Rogues get a larger gain from it.

I can give you more examples if you wish.

It really seems like you had to pull the FFXI clause because your argument was losing strength, though.

[silentwindfr]

exept you don't have any real support role in the game... thief as support will be a DPS and Yoshida don't want to have 2 jobs with the same role come out from the same class.
by the way, you can try to say, imagine, imagine, imagine... if the dev don't want to imagine...you can't force them to imagine. we are bound to respect the rule and the will of the dev in a mmorpg.

when they have said, no thief because of lore, because stealing is bad! (and even if you steal bad guys, it's still bad) we are bound to respect this.
steal stats was often showed, i was even in the past say it was a good idea... but the trouble is how balance it? that the difference between imagine and do create a skill and make it work. and here steal stats offer more trouble than any possible skill.

anyway, we are beating a dead horse here... since they have already states, no thief jobs. we must move on and try to see what we can get other than this.

[MartaDemireux]

when they have said, no thief because of lore, because stealing is bad! (and even if you steal bad guys, it's still bad) we are bound to respect this.

They said there wouldn't be a Thieves Guild in Eorzea (which is just an island). This is because no city would want a band of thieves. Jobs, however, are tied to the character. In the story your character is only one of usually 2 people on the island of Eorzea to partake in that way of life. The other person is the one to teach you the stuff. Three of the jobs feature you being the only one left when all is said and done.

Further, the actual description SE gave for Rogue uses the word "Pilfer" which means to steal. They've incorporated theft as it is and give them a Robin Hood theme to it (Source).

Even further, it's the dev team's job to imagine. Of course they will imagine.

[Reynhart]

Too long to quote entirely

Too bad we're in a FF game, and precisely in THIS FF game, DEX improves Ranged attack, Block rate and parry rate.

And sorry, but you can't just take any stat you like from previous FF and match it with the Dexterity...
How often we get a "turn" ? We have that, it's called Skill Speed
Speed in early FF ? Again, Skill Speed
In Bravely Default, DEX increases Accuracy and do nothing on damage. Agility is a different stat improving the number of hits and again, we have Skill Speed for how often we can strike.

In WoW, classes are built around stats like in Diablo 3, and those stats specifically says "Increase damage for [class-name]" Do you see such a thing like "Increase damage for Lancer and Pugilist" ?

Tell me that Rogue/Ninja should have a much higher Skill Speed and I'd support that wholeheartedly. Like RDM should have much higher Spell Speed so it can cast faster and more often.

[MartaDemireux]

Too bad we're in a FF game, and precisely in THIS FF game, DEX improves Ranged attack, Block rate and parry rate.

you can't just take any stat you like from previous FF and match it with the Dexterity...

Yet the same wiki that you quoted for STR does match them for DEX.

But again, how do you explain Shield Lob, Tomahawk and Piercing talon's damage being based on STR when their description specifically calls them Ranged Attacks? How do you explain ARC/BRD's punching auto-attack to be based on DEX?

That's the core of this argument. DEX does not increase ranged damage at all. The tool-tip says it does in the game but in actual practice it does not. DEX increases damage from Bows. If DEX increased ranged damage then Shield Lob, Tomahawk and Piercing Talon would show DPS gains from equipping DEX (they do not). If you take everything you see at face value and don't challenge it you become the dreaded White Knight. Just because the game says one thing you can't deny that it actually does another when it's proven.

In FFXIV the classes/jobs are also built around the stats because their weapons are. The tool-tips seriously need to be re-written to reflect their use.

[Viridiana]

I'm talking about the Rogue/Thief/Ninja archetype on the whole in every video game series ever. Not just FF.


For FF examples:

FFI-VIII, X-2, XII: FF's with an ATB it is usually referred to as Speed but sometimes also Agility or Dexterity. The more you have the faster it fills. The faster it fills the more attacks you get in. The more attacks you get in the more damage you deal. Thieves had the most of it.

FFIX: Zidane's Thievery does more damage depending on how much speed you have.

FFX: Determines how often you get a turn.

FFXI: As you said DEX calculates Sneak Attack and AGI calculates Trick Attack. However DEX was used to calculate nearly every dagger weaponskill. DEX was the only stat to use on dagger weaponskills. It also effected critical hit rate which was important there.

Non-FF Examples:

Bravely Default: DEX affects accuracy and brave attack rate. AGI affects evasion, how many hits you get in one attack, turn order and first strike rate. Thief also gets an ability which converts all of its speed (based from AGI) into an attack.

WoW: AGI increases ranged attack damage as well as melee attack damage for Rogues (also shamans and bear/cat form druids). Also increases critical hit rate and dodge rate.

Rift: Warriors and Rogues gain attack damage from dexterity but Rogues get a larger gain from it.

I can give you more examples if you wish.

Speed affecting your ATB charge is vastly different from it affecting your damage formula, which was your original claim. So, that nullifies your I-VIII, X, X-2, XII examples. It's the same way that Haste has no actual bearing on your damage formula, it just means you can attack more often.

Thievery's damage is easier to boost by stealing items, to the point where the Speed contribution becomes negligible, but it counts. . .

XI is probably your best example.

And everyone always forgets FFT, where daggers (one of Thief's basic options) was [(Speed+Physical Attack)/2]*Weapon Damage. Of course, even there PA (basically Strength) was just as good at boosting damage as Speed was.

[Reynhart]

The same way I'll explain how Shield Lob and Shield Swipe damage are based or Sword Damage, and punch are based or Bow damage, or how they're affected by slashing or piercing resistance...simplicity

Or rather...I just tried something with my Bard. I engaged a mob at the closest range I can, and guess what ? I attacked with my bow, not with my fist !
So...you tried to deny my point by false statement ?

[Reynhart]

XI is probably your best example.

And everyone always forgets FFT, where daggers (one of Thief's basic options) was [(Speed+Physical Attack)/2]*Weapon Damage. Of course, even there PA (basically Strength) was just as good at boosting damage as Speed was.

But, even in FFXI, 75% of your STR was used in damage calculation, not counting the attack boost from STR, whereas, at best, DEX was a secondary modifier up to 60%

[Viridiana]

But, even in FFXI, 75% of your STR was used in damage calculation, not counting the attack boost from STR, whereas, at best, DEX was a secondary modifier up to 60%

Not gonna lie, I never played XI. I was kinda taking his word for it, even though I saw stuff about STR being useful for THF in XI. . .

[kiraan]

And even if thief was based on DEX in the past 1000 games, it just doesn't make sense in FFXIV with how stats are defined.

Yoshida-san confirmed already in the Massively interview that we should keep the gear we already have for melee DPS if we want to have a head start with rogue/ninja.