NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Bigpurpleharness]

If being a thief is unheroic and thus incompatible with any game where you are the hero then WHY is it in every FF game where you are all HEROES?

It's also worth pointing out that pretty much all of the jobs in the game so far only have one or two iconic skills. Hell all jobs in FF history revolve around just a couple of iconic skills. Can people stop using lines of reasoning to say that Thief cannot happen as a job when the same reasoning would disqualify every job already in the game...

The people making those arguments are arguing for the sake of arguing. I refuse to believe people are unable to apply identical reasoning to multiple instances to that degree. If they can't apply those reasons to every other job and see why they fall flat, they're either being intentionally obtuse or have a cognitive issue.

[Reynhart]

So I suppose STR will be described as "Increase Attack Power (But not for Rogue and Ninja)" and DEX, "Increase ranged attack power, but also attack power for Rogue and Ninja" ?

I don't understand...what's so special about Rogue and Ninja it that people suddenly imagine exceptions here and there ?!

[Arkista]

I don't recall Feint doing total crap damage when used on my Bard, even if the skill should be STR based, like you said.

Talking about FFXI? I haven't played for over a year now, But when did they let other jobs use Merit Abilities? Unless you meant THF and not BRD.

[Reynhart]

Talking about FFXI? I haven't played for over a year now, But when did they let other jobs use Merit Abilities? Unless you meant THF and not BRD.

No, I'm talking about a Lancer skill cross-classed on my BRD that still do damage based on DEX, since I'm equipped with a bow.

[MartaDemireux]

So I suppose STR will be described as "Increase Attack Power (But not for Rogue and Ninja)" and DEX, "Increase ranged attack power, but also attack power for Rogue and Ninja" ?

I don't understand...what's so special about Rogue and Ninja it that people suddenly imagine exceptions here and there ?!

I never said that. I said specifically that DEX could be used in Thief/Rogue's non-damaging mechanics (although now I'm thinking it could be used in some damaging ones as well). Essentially the same way in that THM/BLM/CNJ/WHM/ACN/SMN/SCH weapons use the STR path but they use INT/MND for their skills/mechanics.

They should re-define the two terms though to something along the lines of:

STR: Increases attack power for Swords/Shields/Axes/Fisticuffs/Polearms/Rods/Staves/Books/Twinblades and block/parry strength.
DEX: Increases attack power for Bows and block/parry rates. (potentially evasion too)

Since there are in-game skills which specify that they deliver a ranged attack but use STR due to that being their weapons stat (Tomahawk, Shield Lob, Piercing Talon) I find it inappropriate to define DEX as being a ranged attack modifier. This way they could even put Twinblades on the DEX path instead of the STR. It'd make more sense thematically.

[Reynhart]

They use INT for magic damage and MND for healing because they're magical DPS and healer.

How would a close range DPS not focus on STR since there's a big chance that all his weapon skills damage will improve from it ?!
The main purpose of a DPS is damage, and you want to focus on "non-damaging mechanics" ? I don't understand, sorry.

[MartaDemireux]

They use INT for magic damage and MND for healing because they're magical DPS and healer.

How would a close range DPS not focus on STR since there's a big chance that all his weapon skills damage will improve from it ?!
The main purpose of a DPS is damage, and you want to focus on "non-damaging mechanics" ? I don't understand, sorry.

That's why I used THF as an example. It's not in. It doesn't have to be a DPS. It could be a support job using DEX to heal/raise others atk/recover tp/etc. It could be a tank using DEX to increase enmity values.

They do use INT and MND for magical attack potency and healing potency, yes. They still have Attack Power and it is still based on their STR.

A Rogue/Ninja/Thief/etc. has almost always (if not always) used dexterity and agility in their damage formulas. This is because they are supposed to be dextrous and agile. Since we only have DEX here and not AGI a good analogy would be that they use their dexterity to hit weak points in the monster. Rogue/Ninja/Thief/Archer/Bard could all say this is true as they all want precision in their attacks to deal the most damage that they can with their weapons. Jobs like PLD/MRD/MNK/DRG however don't really care about how precise their attacks are because their weapons allow for them to just smash into the monster. If they were to add in a Fencer class I would expect them to be dextrous to hit weak spots and not just smash wildly just like in real life.

And again there are ranged physical attacks which do not use DEX as a modifier but as it currently states in the tool tips they should be affected by it. But it doesn't make any sense for them to be affected by it because then they would do no damage at all and be pointless to use because the weapons they come from utilize STR and so their armor sets reflect this. You can also run into close range on BRD and auto-attack by punching. That damage is still calculated with DEX as that's what is used for BRD's attack power.

[Reynhart]

A Rogue/Ninja/Thief/etc. has almost always (if not always) used dexterity and agility in their damage formulas.

Ok, people really need to stop using "always" when they say ONLY IN FFXI. Which is technically wrong too since STR and its effect on Attack had a far greater impact on calculating damage than DEX.
And in FFXI, AGI (Which our DEX is far closer to) was useful only for Trick attack, and ONE WS for Dagger or Katana.

And in EVERY offline game, Strength improved attack power, thus physical damage. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

[Alberel]

and one more time, it's different, thief will not explore dark magic forbidden and such... but steal people stuff! when a lot of people in Eorzea are struggling for survive! tell me what message it bring? you can steal from people that are already poor? or you plan to steal the rich of uldah? wake up, we are heroes! thief are not heroes in eorzea! they are bastard that steal people stuff! (and sometimes life) that the lore of the game... you want they change it for make you feel better, when they have already place a class they have themself called thief while the E3. (well the translator)

finally, with the rogue class, what will bring the thief? by the twelves! we already did tell you that thief have almost no iconic skill that can be used in FF14....but you don't listen! you only say... but in FF11 it was... and we are not in FF11! all the complain can only do one thing... make the rogue change name for thief! but don't hope for a jobs thief! simply because Yoshida have always said, they will never add 2 jobs that fit the same role from one class. for make simple, since ninja is dps, thief can't be added! (since it will be dps, and support don't really exist)

Have you heard of Robin Hood? He was a thief and is widely regarded as a hero. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor and basically proved that stealing can be used for good. There's nothing to stop them implementing Thief and having the player steal from bad guys only. Just because the thieves of old in Eorzea's lore were bad guys the player doesn't automatically become a bad guy just by learning their skills. Black magic was used for great evil too yet when you become a black mage you use it for good instead of evil. The problem here is quite simply that you lack any imagination for ways the lore could still allow the player to become a Thief. There is nothing currently in the lore that would make it an impossibility.

And I already explained earlier in this thread that Thief would make a perfect support class akin to bard, stealing stats from enemies and using them to buff the party. They can control enmity to better assist the tank. They can distract targets briefly to give the healers some breathing room. Honestly just USE YOUR IMAGINATION. Very few of the jobs currently in this game are implemented the same as they were in previous incarnations of the series. Stop assuming Thief would have to be exactly like x version you saw in a previous game. If Rogue does not have Mug, Steal, Escape, Trick Attack, etc then there is PLENTY of room for a Thief job.

Use your imagination a bit...

[Exstal]

If Rogue does not have Mug, Steal, Escape, Trick Attack, etc then there is PLENTY of room for a Thief job.

And if Rogue has all those skills (except Trick Attack which is worthless in ARR)? I'm sure it wouldn't deter anyone.