Battle Reform: Enmity (07/06/2011)

[yukikaze_yanagi]

You'll be surprised how many people DON't do it.Lot of people. Many people.
I remember my days in ffxi: doing ouryu with my static : "blm, no freeze at start, wait some time"
i engage
"xxx start casting freeze"

Don't toss SE what should be on player's shoulder.

[Spellstar]

Players don't need a meter to tell them what to do, cause if one decides to cast that nuke and the boss burls over and spanks their ass, you can be damned sure the next time they face that mob, they'll cast the DoT instead...there's your meter ~ "Common Sense"

And as its been said already, in XI where no meter or means to really tell what a mob is going to do next has been quite successful for 9 yrs, why is it suddenly needed now!? It was not hard to get a jist of what was going on, by watching the mobs movements, and how it reacted to what spells you cast and what the PT members did.

Like for instance as a heal-bot myself back in the day and we'll use the dunes as an example. When I cast cure several times on the tank, the goblins would keep turning to face me, showing it was pissed off I was healing its target, sometimes it would start to make a run at and whack me. And as a healer you can't take that more than two or three times...common sense kicks in hard...maybe I should wait a few moments longer between heals so my enmity doesn't rise so fast and that goblin don't run over to thwack me again!

WALL OF TEXT APOLOGY

You say its common sense but thats not playing in the real world. Not everyone has common sense for a start but that not really my point.

With no meter, you dont know wether to cast the nuke or not - if you have common sense you will know roughly if its gonna draw hate - i agree.
So if you have common sense and decide not to cast a nuke for fear of drawing hate, without a meter you will never know if that was REALLY the right choice. It may have been that you could have successfully casted the nuke and taken a big chunk of HP from the mob, but because you had no meter, you held back a bit "just in case".

As i said originally, a meter empowers players to make wise choices not based on "common sense" as you put it, because even ppl with common sense still pull hate and die.

Anyway, the devs obviously think its a good idea, i agree with them. IM not an 'EZ Mode' player in mmo's and i genuinely dont think this will make the game easy. It will add another layer of strategy and help people make informed choices.

People are scared of progress it seems. Progress is what this game needs, while holding true to traditional FF values and experiences. As Yoshi said, the game being awkward to play or difficult for 'difficulty's sake' does not make a good game, and it does not make you any more skilled a player either.

If progress is not achieved soon then you wont have flashing red dots to argue about anyway, they wont be there. So well done FFXIV i'm in your corner guys. Make this game a modern FF to be proud of ! And modern players will come flocking, and the game will thrive.

One last point to Khalus in particular:

And as its been said already, in XI where no meter or means to really tell what a mob is going to do next has been quite successful for 9 yrs, why is it suddenly needed now!?

Conversely, just because it has been "successful" (questionable as the game doesn't really have a huge player base by modern standards) in the past, it does not mean that adding functionality will make the game any worse either. IF threat meters had been added to FFXI it would not have flopped, and once FFXIV is ship-shape and Bristol fashion, with all its modern elements, neither will this game.


People need to stop wishing for an intense modern replacement for FFXI - THAT IS NOT THE DIRECTION THEY ARE TAKING THIS GAME IN - THOSE GAMES DO NOT MAKE THE BIG MONEY.
You can still have a slightly more user friendly game which will please more people and keep the servers vibrant, while holding true to the fantasy, excitement and strategy of the FF series.

Killing your players with 11 hour boss battles etc is not good bizaness !

Like it or not. Vote with your feet.

[Khalus]

As i said originally, a meter empowers players to make wise choices not based on "common sense" as you put it, because even ppl with common sense still pull hate and die.

Then we die and "learned" something by "playing" the game, not by being told what to, when to or how to. There is no enmity meter in any other MMO that I'm aware of and I've played hundreds. You learn what mobs do by playing and if you die as a result, then so be it, death penalties all but don't exist anymore in the modern MMOs so who cares! You get back up and try again, only differently until you learn the pattern and what works best!

With a colored meter indicating whether its ok to go with the Nuke or a simple DoT, or whatever else; thats just blatantly telling one how to play the game instead of letting us decide and learn by consequence.

[Gun_Anam]

I'll do this examples trying to explain my point of view on thread meter:
case 1: average-good tank + the spammers.
This will be short: spammers are a scourge. They should't spam at all. If they die, they deserve it, aggro meter or not.I don't think a spammer would bother watching it thou.

Case 2: less-than average tank + normal players.
Ok, we have a good pt but the tank it's a little sucky. Here's the point:
-tank do it's best, but since isn't so good, dds catch his hate often
-dds see the icon and stop damaging
-what happen now ? Nobody doing damage, aka the fight goes longer
-Mob isn't standing still, he's still attacking.Aka, the healer still heal
-On long run, the general efficenty of party goes bad
-eventually, healer run out mp, or nm rage
-guess what ?
In a environement like this, how can help you aggro icon? He don't teach tank do to his job better.He can save your life 1,2 times, but there are side effects on stopping doing your job.
This is my opinion.

I posted a similar example near the bottom of the first page of this thread. I agree that it doesn't help the immediate battle but will instead help to pinpoint the weak links in your party. By finding out who the weak links are you can then replace them next time with more capable players thereby improving your party and battle experience as a whole.

If DPS (including damage dealing mages) don't regulate their damage and aggro control then the DPS is the weak link.
If the DPS have to slow down damage excessively due to the tank not increasing their enmity then the tank is the weak link.
If the healers have to reduce their heals due to the tank not increasing their enmity then the tank is the weak link.
If the tank or DPS dies while the tank maintains aggro control then the healer is the weak link.

No longer will innocent people be blamed for aggro sh*tstorms.

[JunkPunch]

Well it is easy mode, you are calling it an informed decision, I call it having big brother tell you if it's ok to attack or not. You must not have any sense of adventure, I like the idea at any give time all hell could break loose.*

What is this added layer of strategy your posting about? This is only adding to SE arsenal of features to keep players from having any adventure, excitement and fun in this game. With this I see monotonous raids, nm fights and and even more bland battle system.*

It seems as if they are going out of their way to help everyone to defeat every mob they come across in the game. And that's the easy button part, were all not supposed to be winning 100% of the time. We need to learn to walk 1st, not skip everything and drive a car. What's next infinite Hp and mp? How much easier are they planning on making this game?*

[TirionCrey]

I'll do this examples trying to explain my point of view on thread meter:
case 1: average-good tank + the spammers.
This will be short: spammers are a scourge. They should't spam at all. If they die, they deserve it, aggro meter or not.I don't think a spammer would bother watching it thou.

Case 2: less-than average tank + normal players.
Ok, we have a good pt but the tank it's a little sucky. Here's the point:
-tank do it's best, but since isn't so good, dds catch his hate often
-dds see the icon and stop damaging
-what happen now ? Nobody doing damage, aka the fight goes longer
-Mob isn't standing still, he's still attacking.Aka, the healer still heal
-On long run, the general efficenty of party goes bad
-eventually, healer run out mp, or nm rage
-guess what ?
In a environement like this, how can help you aggro icon? He don't teach tank do to his job better.He can save your life 1,2 times, but there are side effects on stopping doing your job.
This is my opinion.

The difference is...the aggro icon will show everyone BESIDES the Tank, that the tank SUCKS! So either they flame him to get better, or they kick him or w/e. So there is a learning effect in it...do you really think people will not wonder why they can't even do half as much dmg as with a good tank in the group and just say "Ah, that's just cause of the broken enmity, it's not the tanks fault"...in fact people will see they get close to getting aggro and wonder "What is wrong with this tank, I'm able to do twice as much with a good tank"

We need to learn to walk 1st, not skip everything and drive a car. What's next infinite Hp and mp? How much easier are they planning on making this game?*

I guess your parents didn't help you learning to walk, right?....
If you want to bring up RL examples, at least think them through before emberassing yourself. The teacher sitting beside you while you learn how to drive...he wasn't there either when you learned it right? You probably never needed help for anything in your life, you were born awesome!

In your example the aggro icon would resemble your parents and your driving teacher so your whole comparison is flawed.

[Zanfire]

WALL OF TEXT APOLOGY

You say its common sense but thats not playing in the real world. Not everyone has common sense for a start but that not really my point.

With no meter, you dont know wether to cast the nuke or not - if you have common sense you will know roughly if its gonna draw hate - i agree.
So if you have common sense and decide not to cast a nuke for fear of drawing hate, without a meter you will never know if that was REALLY the right choice. It may have been that you could have successfully casted the nuke and taken a big chunk of HP from the mob, but because you had no meter, you held back a bit "just in case".

As i said originally, a meter empowers players to make wise choices not based on "common sense" as you put it, because even ppl with common sense still pull hate and die.

Anyway, the devs obviously think its a good idea, i agree with them. IM not an 'EZ Mode' player in mmo's and i genuinely dont think this will make the game easy. It will add another layer of strategy and help people make informed choices.

People are scared of progress it seems. Progress is what this game needs, while holding true to traditional FF values and experiences. As Yoshi said, the game being awkward to play or difficult for 'difficulty's sake' does not make a good game, and it does not make you any more skilled a player either.

If progress is not achieved soon then you wont have flashing red dots to argue about anyway, they wont be there. So well done FFXIV i'm in your corner guys. Make this game a modern FF to be proud of ! And modern players will come flocking, and the game will thrive.

One last point to Khalus in particular:


Conversely, just because it has been "successful" (questionable as the game doesn't really have a huge player base by modern standards) in the past, it does not mean that adding functionality will make the game any worse either. IF threat meters had been added to FFXI it would not have flopped, and once FFXIV is ship-shape and Bristol fashion, with all its modern elements, neither will this game.


People need to stop wishing for an intense modern replacement for FFXI - THAT IS NOT THE DIRECTION THEY ARE TAKING THIS GAME IN - THOSE GAMES DO NOT MAKE THE BIG MONEY.
You can still have a slightly more user friendly game which will please more people and keep the servers vibrant, while holding true to the fantasy, excitement and strategy of the FF series.

Killing your players with 11 hour boss battles etc is not good bizaness !

Like it or not. Vote with your feet.

Sorry but your first part makes no sense. The meter wont tell you when its ok to nuke, you still have to decide that, you wont "hold back" more or less with or without that meter...it will only tell you the results right after. After so many nukes, sure, you can see "maybe i shouldnt do that next one since the meter says red". SO its actually backwards, the meter will hold you back. For me that just seems unessicary, .

And your quite wrong about the second bit, the games like FFXI are the only ones (aside from WoW, which is sort of the middle ground) that actually last and hold a heafty amount of players for YEARS. Can you name an MMO since WoW that has lasted with a pretty big amount of subs and has not gone F2P or shut down? Cause i cant.

Todays MMOs are built to be about quick play, fast leveling, easy to learn, not as difficult so everyone can do things like endgame. They can't keep those hardcore around because they burn through it too quick and find it easy and the casuals never play as long as hardcore...its not like they have long and difficult things that make either stick around.

[Zanfire]

The difference is...the aggro icon will show everyone BESIDES the Tank, that the tank SUCKS! So either they flame him to get better, or they kick him or w/e. So there is a learning effect in it...do you really think people will not wonder why they can't even do half as much dmg as with a good tank in the group and just say "Ah, that's just cause of the broken enmity, it's not the tanks fault"...in fact people will see they get close to getting aggro and wonder "What is wrong with this tank, I'm able to do twice as much with a good tank"



I guess your parents didn't help you learning to walk, right?....
If you want to bring up RL examples, at least think them through before emberassing yourself. The teacher sitting beside you while you learn how to drive...he wasn't there either when you learned it right? You probably never needed help for anything in your life, you were born awesome!

In your example the aggro icon would resemble your parents and your driving teacher so your whole comparison is flawed.

Im sorry, but id prefer not having a "this tank sucks button" it just doesnt promote learning. Nor does it help if someone else is not doing so good and it makes it seem like the tank sucks. besides, you can only see your hate, so its not like you could tell whos blowing it.

As for the RL example....being a meh one in the first place, the one thing you failed to mention is...the training wheels come off at some point, in all senarios. So do we stop having the agro icon later, or we stuck with training wheels and mommy holding our hands the whole damn time?

[AdvancedWind]

Well, why do you all have HP bars on enemies and damage displays? A true skillful player is able to calculate how close to death a mob is AND how much damage each attack does without all that.

In fact, let's just get hid of HP, MP and TP bars for players as well; we should know when we are able to use our abilities and how close to death we are.

And why do enemies start glowing when they're preparing a special move? I, as a skillful player, do not require such easy mode hand holding.

Heck, I don't even know why we have a map at all!

Please SE, I fear all these UI "additions" are hurting my overal gameplay experience and turning this game into a ridiculously easy game; please completely remove all information from my UI, so I can guesstimate how much of a hardcore, extremely skillful player I am, and not have my immersion broken by such useless things like an easy-modo action bar that let me easily choose which moves I'm gonna use.

Thanks.

[Capita]

Well, why do you all have HP bars on enemies and damage displays? A true skillful player is able to calculate how close to death a mob is AND how much damage each attack does without all that.

In fact, let's just get hid of HP, MP and TP bars for players as well; we should know when we are able to use our abilities and how close to death we are.

And why do enemies start glowing when they're preparing a special move? I, as a skillful player, do not require such easy mode hand holding.

Heck, I don't even know why we have a map at all!

Please SE, I fear all these UI "additions" are hurting my overal gameplay experience and turning this game into a ridiculously easy game; please completely remove all information from my UI, so I can guesstimate how much of a hardcore, extremely skillful player I am, and not have my immersion broken by such useless things like an easy-modo action bar that let me easily choose which moves I'm gonna use.

Thanks.

Exactly this. For all the ad hominem, straw man, and red herring arguments coming from people who are against the enmity meter, this is how it's done.

Also the post a few pages back. All the "hardcore" people unhappy with the game being easy should just turn their UI off. There, you can guess and "adventure" all you want now.