An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Nharil]

My first MMO was FFXI. I played it during Beta and started immediately on PC release. I leveled a DRG in 2003-2004; and since experiencing that I have hated exp loss as a penalty for death.

You dont know a grind until you've experienced early DRG. Having that progress stripped away from you for reason that may or may not have been your fault was awful.

Hahaha, I'd believe it -- I originally picked up SAM at the start and only made it to about 51 before I dropped out of the game for a few years from frustration over the lack of party invitations. I still remember the long days in Jeuno praying I would get to do ANYTHING only to log out 7 hours later with nothing accomplished. It's hard to lose XP when you aren't actively putting yourself in harm's way..

Realistically It would be surprising if we saw any kind of change to the current system until long after everything else has been touched on. As a developer it would be really hard to give players a lenient system only to make a change overnight and say "hey folks, sorry but now you're going to have to start suffering now". The game is already fairly established, so if it ISN'T touched soon, it'll become less and less likely that we'll see any kind of changes down the road.

In the event SP/XP changes weren't even being considered as a penalty, I think I'd prefer a gil sink like gear damage. Lord knows there's enough gil floating around in the economy as it is..

[Rowyne]

In the event SP/XP changes weren't even being considered as a penalty, I think I'd prefer a gil sink like gear damage. Lord knows there's enough gil floating around in the economy as it is..

Gotta admit, I'm sitting on close to 1 mil gil with nothing to spend it on. >.<

First time I've ever done more than barely scrape by in a FF MMO lol

[Kurokikaze]

Theres far too much gil in the economy and not enough ways to remove it which leads to repairs being a penalty a much better choice.

I know 8 people that have at ~200m stockpiled. We're only 6 months into the game...

[Rentahamster]

I do not think that having XP loss is a good way to make death more threatening. There are too many negatives that outweigh the positives, and it discourages more than it encourages.

I agree that the current system is a little too lenient and most players tend to throw caution to the wind and just go for it since the penalty of death isn't that severe.

There are better ways to make a player not want to die. How about this:

For every 24 hours a player goes without dying, they get one "life point". Upon accumulating 10 life points (maximum of 15), the player gets to enjoy certain bonuses that he can choose (up to 2): +5% attack/mag attack, +5% defense/mag defense, +5% accuracy/mag acc, -5% MP cost, +5% TP gain, -10% gil from NPC shops, +2% SP bonus.

Characters with 15 life points also get some sort of physical appearance boost, like a healthy glow, or something. I dunno, something that looks cool and attractive, but not too gaudy.

The lowest amount of life points you can ever have is -5. If you ever have a life point total between -5 and -1, your appearance takes on a slightly more sickly look. Nothing too severe, as that would discourage a lot of ppl, but noticeable enough so that I can look at that player and know, "that dude dies too much".

Upon dying -

A player loses 3 anima.

All gear except the weapon takes a 15% durability hit.

You lose 10 life points.

Weakness status for 3 minutes.


If a player is raised -

You only lose 5 life points.

Weakness status for 3 minutes.


If a player is raised with the skill "Raise II" -

You only lose 5 life points.

[origamikitsune]

Hi. Thought I would chime in. Some things to know about me first, I played 11 for 8 years, as a WHM with reraise/raise/sneak/invis. I hated crafting in that game. In this game, it is opposite. I love, love love, the DoL/DoH jobs and play them exclusively.

/wave

So, that said, here is my 2cents.

First, I do believe there needs to be a penalty to death. However, as many of the arguments stated, doing so at the detriment to casual players (of which I am not) is not exactly fair. Yes, I want to the game to be scary, nerve wracking, and to actually feel like I am ADVENTURING. That is, after all, why I play this game. Likewise, I don't want the penalties to scare my girlfriend from the game - she is the very definition of a casual player, and I like playing with here.

So where is the happy medium? I think, personally, that there can be a lot done to the current system to improve it, make dying something to avoid but not a deterrent to actually playing.

1.) There is no need for an SP/XP loss. Aside from all the arguments against that have been made already, think about this: It was not added to the game from the start. Adding it now would do more harm to the game's already bad reputation and is counterproductive to what SE is trying to do with the game, which is save it from becoming a such a monetary sink that they HAVE to shut it down.

2.) Lets look at death in leve: The penalty for repeated death (not -a- death) should be failure of the leve. Very simply, if you don't get your shit together, you shouldn't get shit for reward. Pardon the language. I think this will be addressed in part with the game optimized for lower party sizes. If the game is balanced for 8 people, or 6, then one person dying is much more noticeable than than with 15 people. More so, two or three people dying, and you have a serious issue. Even if they continued to allow 15 person parties on 8 person leves, and balanced it right with an SP hit, you are now having to make the choice. Learn the job and stop dying to get better SP, or take the SP hit. A proper balancing of party dynamics, size, and mob difficulty is its OWN incentive to keep from dying.

3.) And yet that does not address the issue of solo/duo play, grinding, exploring etc. This can be simply addressed with a multi-faucet approach. First, place a 1 anima cost on returns (0 anima cost if you are out of anima). For casual players this does not hurt them much, but that's the point. You want the casual play to stay casual. For hardcore players constantly on the go, 1 anima is a lot. But more importantly it CAN be managed (I for one, plan my travels carefully enough to the point where I can tele-taxi on my main.) or averted by not dying.

4.) Also allow for the removal of fatigue by the use of Guardian's Favor is a good thing... Especially if you have to choose between running back at full health into your leve so you don't fail it OR... waiting for it to expire after Raise / Re-Raise - thus saving yourself the anima for the return and the guardian's favor. Whether or not Pheonix Down is added is for a whole different topic Point is, balance this right with the difficulty of leves and you either avoid the death OR have to make a tough choice.

5.) As a crafter, I honestly SHOULD be fearing death. There isn't anything what-so-ever to me dying. It just does. not. matter. People frequently forget that DoL/DoH is a class in this game. Whatever happens regarding death, has to affect us crafters, too. I already manage my anima well; that's because I covet it. Even though I rarely drop below 60 anima, I would HATE loosing 1 anima on death.

6.) Durability hits to gear is a great idea for a penalty. Again, it won't affect the casual players too much. But it will provide a reason to avoid the repeated deaths. Until the repair system is improved, however, it is pointless. As has already been said, there needs to be a tiered system. a 10% loss of your max durability would be worth while if and only if there was a difference between 90% damage and 1% damage. It is very simply. If your gear is "white", it costs what it costs now to repair. If your gear is "yellow" it costs double mats/double gil OR a +1 of the mat. If your gear is red, it should be triple cost in mats / gil OR a +2 mat. IF you let your gear get all the way down to 0 dura, I am all for a x4 cost multiplier for gil / mats, OR a +3 item to do it to full. Hmm. I think I will make this a new thread topic, too. I like that idea. But then, I am a crafter!

So, in summary: 1 anima to return. 10% dura hit (or another % as needed for balance) with tiered repairs. Guardian's Favor to instantly remove weakness (I think I called it fatigue above; my bad). Raise/Reraise to avoid the anima cost. With leves balanced so that a death or two doesn't matter but three or four might, and a one full wipe puts you at serious risk unless you kick ass, and you have your solution!

And that's my 2cents.

[Wolfie]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, as I'm not patient enough to read through 11 pages.

I could see an exp debt system working for FFXIV.

It would function like this:

On death, an exp debt bar fills up by a certain amount/%. While you have debt, any experience you earn will decrease this exp debt bar, but will NOT increase your regular exp bar. When the debt bar is emptied out, exp gains function like normal.

In addition, the exp debt can be wiped through money contribution (stiff pay) or perhaps a once-a-week repeatable quest.

[Nharil]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, as I'm not patient enough to read through 11 pages.

I could see an exp debt system working for FFXIV.

It would function like this:

On death, an exp debt bar fills up by a certain amount/%. While you have debt, any experience you earn will decrease this exp debt bar, but will NOT increase your regular exp bar. When the debt bar is emptied out, exp gains function like normal.

In addition, the exp debt can be wiped through money contribution (stiff pay) or perhaps a once-a-week repeatable quest.

From a lore perspective it would be funny to see how they would spin gil donations into XP debt removal.

If they DID go with an XP loss penalty, that would be a nice alternative to wiping it. XP debt with an alternative is better than XP loss -- I can get behind that.

[Amas]

I'll admit to reading the first and last pages. So I missed a lot of posts (because frankly it's going to be redundant) and so my post probably will be redundant as well.

Adding more danger to the world is a better solution to add tension than removing XP/SP upon death.

Don't penalize a player for dying (beyond rez penalties), but just make it harder to get around the world, especially the remote parts of it, without getting face stomped.

Too little aggros right now, the leash radius and attack damage aren't the problem so much as how close safety lies at all times. If escaping from one aggro mob leads you right into the attention of another, you'll be a lot more careful to begin with.

Edit: That said, roads between major cities should be safe travel. You shouldn't risk death just by running between Uldah and the boat to LL or towards Grid. You'd think if each nation had an army, that army would concern itself with securing its primary trade routes.

There just needs to be a reason to run to other locations (besides a few Aethyrite camps for leves) which are not safe.

[Rowyne]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, as I'm not patient enough to read through 11 pages.

I could see an exp debt system working for FFXIV.

It would function like this:

On death, an exp debt bar fills up by a certain amount/%. While you have debt, any experience you earn will decrease this exp debt bar, but will NOT increase your regular exp bar. When the debt bar is emptied out, exp gains function like normal.

In addition, the exp debt can be wiped through money contribution (stiff pay) or perhaps a once-a-week repeatable quest.

No offense, but this still looks like exp loss to me, only prettied-up.

The only difference is the idea of an alternative to wipe the debt.

[Wolfie]

From a lore perspective it would be funny to see how they would spin gil donations into XP debt removal.

If they DID go with an XP loss penalty, that would be a nice alternative to wiping it. XP debt with an alternative is better than XP loss -- I can get behind that.

Pay a priest/mage/whatever for magical soul healing. Or a warrior/thief/whatever for training (because obviously you weren't as well trained as you thought you were).

Perhaps they could have this exp debt decay over time as well, to give a "reward" to those who die less often.