I don't understand...

[Kerberon]

Come again militant casuals? Seriously? Does this even make any sense? Casuals don't care enough to be militant, beligerent, or any these troll behaviors.

Wrong casual is a playstyle, militant is an attitude. edit* See the next post below as this quote gets twisted. Nothing is wrong with being casual, the problem is the combination of attitude and playstyle. Guess we've reached the point where the only thing left to try to argue with me about with this is to use politician's tricks to misquote and mislead.

There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.

This is a perfect example of militantly casual. If you get offended by advice about your rotation as being angry orders or busy body nanny state, you are militantly casual.

Things need balance. Never giving polite advice when things are going badly is the opposite side of the guy that rages and swears at everyone when they make a mistake. It's out of balance and harmful. Let them play how they want no matter what is out of balance, and anything out of balance is harmful.

[Foo01]

Wrong casual is a playstyle....

Casual is playstyle is wrong? Says who?

... militant is an attitude. ...

Says the militant elitists attitudes. It is the elitist trying to force people to play their way their style that is the problem.

....Things need balance. ....

Sure but the balance you are talking about is completely bogus.

Never giving polite advice when things are going badly is the opposite side of the guy that rages and swears at everyone when they make a mistake....

Both the term "polite advice" and "going badly" are vague and subjective. So much for the false equivalence.

No one said never giving advice, no one is telling you to stfu and play. Wiping 15 times might be frustrating to a speed runner (where wiping once means rage quit for the elitist), but it is perfectly ok to casual players trying to figure it out. Not clearing content and running out of time on the first try is also perfectly fine. Uncalled for advice is not going to be well received, so called "polite" may not be so "polite" on the receiving end.

On the other hand being the elitist that rages at everyone else, that is absolutely uncalled for and absolutely not OK. It isn't about being militant (excluding trolls of course), it is about having a friendly environment for everyone to play the way they are comfortable with.

[ManweSulimo]

The best story I got is where I ended up in a stone vigil party with a tank that couldn't hold agro against even one of my fire IIs. The other dps and the healer tried to convince me that I should only be doing fire I cause it's more dps and I won't pull agro. So I said the tank needed to learn to hold agro and he said he wouldn't pull agro off me anymore so I died. And while I was walking back they banned together and votekicked me for not listening to them because they didn't believe me that fire II is better against mobs. Then I went to Haukke Manor and never pulled agro once using Fire IIs :P

[abzoluut]

There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.

But it should be obvious and self-evident that "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would not demand other players to optimize their DPS and play like some robot doing everything a close to perfect as possible, and certainly would not get mad at them for 1 mistake and kick like the elitist do.

But rather "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would mean it is ok to go slower, not speed run 100%, carry some of them sometimes when you can etc. And it would mean not be so demanding of them like the OP wishes. So what if their DPS is not on the high end, are you going make an issue of it and make everyone else feel bad?

This is the second time you question the general assumption as to what is asking in a normal or kind manner. I think everyone knows how giving advice kindly sounds. Even the ones that boss people around do. There is no need to point out it's subjective. It's sad that Tiggy had to go through an example just to make sure you were on the same page.

The OP's title is "I don't understand". He is asking why. He does not understand why people would not try to use better rotations. It's the same "why" the other side of the story thinks: "why would you want to max dps, sit back and relax". The fact that his side made a thread about it, does not mean he's wrong and all the others are victims. They think the exact same way as some have pointed out here, let's not get things one sided here.

He clearly states he does not need to 100% speed run. He also asks questions why certain jobs do so and so. I have yet to see the part where he damands things. Is his tone kind? I guess not. Do I understand his frustration? Yes.

[Foo01]

.... snip

The tank may have trouble with aggro so he wanted to attack single targets. The healer wants to keep things simple for the tank, so go slower don't AOE the group. They asked you nicely and you had to go get yourself vote kicked. Could the tank do better, maybe, but then again perhaps not at that time. It does not matter that another tank in Haukke can deal with it. It is all about learning to play together.

There was this one time I was playing the PLD in toto-rak and I had this BLM that claimed that he can be a better tank, after I asked him not to grab aggro while I was still marking targets. He refused to listen. After three attempts to get thru to him, I made him be tank and I switched to healing using cure on my PLD on every one else but the BLM, and he was left with kite tanking. He wanted to be in such a hurry to blow thru stuff and wouldn't allow people to work together. Well now it took twice as long. It is not always about doing it as fast as possible.

--------------------

He clearly states he does not need to 100% speed run. He also asks questions why certain jobs do so and so. I have yet to see the part where he damands things. Is his tone kind? I guess not. Do I understand his frustration? Yes.

I also understand his frustration. I know I have lost it myself in team play on things like SC/BW and SC2 when the same guy (real life friend no less) still can not hold against a 6-pool and then refuses to train with me where I can get him reps so he know exactly what to do and do it fast, but even there that is really not justified. So this being a MMO where players are encourage to play and be themselves and not have to deal with some high intensity high stress environment, the demand to optimize is clearly not the norm that should promoted. But what I see here in this thread are pro-elitist stances who think everyone must optimize like them and doing any else is like a crime. That attitude makes it no fun for a vast majority of players who are playing earnest and for fun but don't want to take it to that extreme.

[RegnumMagik]

It alll smells like a troll you got. The tank got sick of the troll and left. Why did you feel that you need to come back be subjected to the troll? If I was the tank I would have ask the party if they think this guy was a troll especially if we were wiping multiple times because of the troll.

BTW what sort communication did you have with the BLM? Without further information you cannot determine how to make the call on this. But please don't generalize 1 player's bad behavior or the select few bad encounters that stick out and to say the rest of the player base that they don't care about their performance.

I just asked why they don't consider instant stack swapping with Fire III/Blizzard III. I generally ask people their reason to see if they have their own reason. But they just straight up ignore me.
I also didn't wanted to ruin the run because the healer was innocent, it would be terrible of me to just waste their time and not get sold of the week.

[Tiggy]

No one said never giving advice, no one is telling you to stfu and play.

Gormogon did. Can't forget his contribution to this discussion where any advice of any form was too much.
So yeah. Some people here are being exactly that ridiculous.

It's a balance between saying nothing and saying too much that must be achieved. All while being nice and not insulting about it.

[Foo01]

.... But they just straight up ignore me....

The silent ones are the hardest to figure out. Sometimes I wonder if they are not bots. But luckily I have not had too many of those. But there was this one time where it was tam-tara and I got the silent treatment the entire dungeon, that was a really weird feeling. In any case, if I were the tank I would have elected to vote kick him after repeated wipes if the team will agree that he is troll or bot. It would have been the more fair and better for the healer, tank, and you, and it would have been better than the tank just giving up and leaving.

------------------------

Gormogon did. ...

I don't think we should pick on Gormogon. Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I don't think he told people to "stfu and play."

[KingOfAbyss]

Both the term "polite advice" and "going badly" are vague and subjective. So much for the false equivalence.

No one said never giving advice, no one is telling you to stfu and play. Wiping 15 times might be frustrating to a speed runner (where wiping once means rage quit for the elitist), but it is perfectly ok to casual players trying to figure it out. Not clearing content and running out of time on the first try is also perfectly fine. Uncalled for advice is not going to be well received, so called "polite" may not be so "polite" on the receiving end.

On the other hand being the elitist that rages at everyone else, that is absolutely uncalled for and absolutely not OK. It isn't about being militant (excluding trolls of course), it is about having a friendly environment for everyone to play the way they are comfortable with.

Amen to that.

[Gormogon]

I don't think we should pick on Gormogon. Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I don't think he told people to "stfu and play."

I never did but you can expect people like Tiggy, and others I have on ignore, to go to such extremes to try and make their point.

I know people like making sob stories about how 1 run affected them. Yet all I see is a 1 run sob story. Which you may probably never be partnered with that person ever again through DF.

Back when people would do AK in greens since DL wasn't handed out like candy and players would die to Demon Wall's knockback. I went through many wipes and many unsuccessful clears. Eventually the few times I got passed Demon Wall was because tanks were decent enough and could adjust to a situation after the bee phase. Most of my early clears were based on me and a paladin who would alternate tanking, healing, and dpsing which was a slow but sure kill or it was a geared Warrior that could solo tank without the need of a healer past the bee phase on his own. After that I had to take care of the adds from the lass boss by myself and have the other DPS focus on dpsing and not getting hit by imminent catastrophe and getting the tanks to Anatoboga near the statue so they just tank and spank. It was harder to get tanks to tank Anatoboga than it was getting DPSers to not die to Imminent Catastrophe. For the most part because tanks knew it wasn't a simple fight due to mechanics they would ask for advice where to tank, in which I had to stand where they should and act as a visual marker, since there was no way marks then, and hope to move away before getting hit by Anatoboga's frontal cone abilities.

Case in point, I pulled my weight and then some. If we couldn't down it then I just accepted that we couldn't and it was better for them to get the experience and get used to the fight then trying to force constant change in strategem that wasn't gonna work if they didn't experience and became self aware of the mechanics. If players wanted advice I tried my best to explain the mechanics and what they should do or some others will. Yet for the most part it was never helpful when someone during those times would rage at people, especially when the person wasn't any better and then leave just leaving nothing but negativism through all that induced drama.

Same with Titan HM, I went around 3 months without getting the cleared because for the most part the groups I got through DF weren't gonna down it and it was hilarious seeing some groups fall apart simply because there was someone new or someone that didn't get past hearth phase. Once the FC I joined wanted to actively do primals it was on average 6 decent players carrying the other 2 while it was more work for the 6 players it was never a sob story.

Currently even now I handle Diabolos doors by myself in Lost City. If someone wants to try I let them. If we wipe then whatever the boss isn't going anywhere. If we down him then great there's 1 more person that can do it and that's a good thing. Yet I don't go making it a sob story because I have to do extra work and lose out on my DPS.

When I was farming my animus I didn't go and make new tanks life impossible when I got Satasha or Tam-Tara simply because they couldn't deal with the enmity dealt from Fire I crit. In fact I found use for css ruin, which I found to be hilarious, and made the new tanks job less stressful instead of being an elitist jerk and telling him he should try and force the notion of a rotation on him. I have no reason to start a players day with stress or end it with stress just to gratify my selfish needs for a piece of gear.