I don't understand...

[Odett]

snip.

You're talking about pointless numbers, then list skills that increase DPS?

A DRG does not achieve maximum DPS without Disembowel. Disembowel is great for BRDs in the group, but you as a DRG won't even achieve max DPS yourself unless you Disembowel, because all DRG attacks are piercing attacks (not to mention that you won't be able to use Chaos Thrust either).

DK with MNK isn't just for the party, the also won't achieve their best DPS if they don't apply it because every attack that they have, minus DoT ticks (those count as unaspected damage, Idk if the same applies to DRG) is a Blunt attack.

Most of the skills you listed for BLM/SMN are off the cooldown, so it won't affect their DPS. If they're not using these skills, it's not because it affects their DPS, but because they don't know any better.

PLD cover is an underused skill (and it won't ever be used when the tank doesn't use basic mitigation skills like Foresight and Rampart) I'll give you that one. PLD Cure, on the other hand, does EXTREMELY little healing, which can work on "off-phases" where you don't need to move, but 2 healers would top you off anyway when they're healing (or prehealing) the AoE damage that just happened, so it's a moot point (like a Titan jump). PLD SS like you said, is very useful.

Healers can contribute a whole lot to DPS, like you said, but not many of them do so.

I did not talk about BRDS because I do not have a lv 50 one, so I am not comfortable talking about them.

Here is where it gets frustrating. A DRG not using Disembowel and a MNK not using DK aren't abstaining from using said skills to boost their DPS because it actually lowers it (and greatly for DRG due to no CT either). You said in an earlier post not to give advice unless asked. Would you abstain from giving someone helpful advice that will not only boost the time of this run, but more importantly make these players better in the long run? If you're rudely spoken back to, or totally ignored, then that is frustrating. I've met a lot of players that say "why are you telling me this? No one is dying and we beat the dungeon." That's very true, but it could have gone a lot smoother if they had not spammed their Full Thrust combo (which WILL likely result in death from lack of DPS when they move on to harder Full Party fights), not to mention that it's a carry. You will also be met with even more rude remarks if you suggest to a healer that they can cleric dance and help with DPS if they want if the tank can effectively use defensive cooldowns.

[Gormogon]

You're talking about pointless numbers, then list skills that increase DPS?

I'm referring to individuals not using abilities that better suit the group to simply satisfy their numbers and trying to force results in their favor. Bards on average are the biggest offenders because they don't want to suffer that damage penalty from certain songs. Yet other jobs aren't exempt from that sort of behavior.

You said in an earlier post not to give advice unless asked. Would you abstain from giving someone helpful advice that will not only boost the time of this run, but more importantly make these players better in the long run? If you're rudely spoken back to, or totally ignored, then that is frustrating. I've met a lot of players that say "why are you telling me this? No one is dying and we beat the dungeon." That's very true, but it could have gone a lot smoother if they had not spammed their Full Thrust combo (which WILL likely result in death from lack of DPS when they move on to harder Full Party fights), not to mention that it's a carry. You will also be met with even more rude remarks if you suggest to a healer than they cleric dance and help with DPS if the tank can effectively use defensive cooldowns.

A player that wants to better himself will make it known to the group that he does want to improve. So you're free to "judge" and "criticize" his rotation so he gets better as long as it is done in a sincere manner.
A player that didn't ask for advice doesn't have to deal with your lecture. While you know the benefits of using a rotation or certain abilities in certain situations the individual in question did not ask for your 2 cents.

It's not gonna help them in the long run, in fact you are only doing a disservice to yourself and others by forcing those individuals to be stubborn about accepting advice.

When you're faced with those players your options are limited but simple.
1.) Carry them, regardless of your personal feelings regarding the issue. Stirring up drama over 1 player that everyone else in the group will have to deal with causes a more negative atmosphere than it ever will a positive one.
2.) Stall until he leaves. Eventually all those wipes are gonna get to the individual in question and will leave on his own.
3.) Start forming your own secluded parties that wont include such players.

Yet if your approach is to constantly try and force feed individuals your own standards well power to you.

[Tiggy]

There is nothing wrong with kindly giving advice when you meet a fresh player in a dungeon. Nothing at all. You can justify it in as many ways as you want, but being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others in a kind way is not bad.

[Foo01]

There is nothing wrong with kindly giving advice when you meet a fresh player in a dungeon. Nothing at all. You can justify it in as many ways as you want, but being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others in a kind way is not bad.

There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.

But it should be obvious and self-evident that "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would not demand other players to optimize their DPS and play like some robot doing everything a close to perfect as possible, and certainly would not get mad at them for 1 mistake and kick like the elitist do.

But rather "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would mean it is ok to go slower, not speed run 100%, carry some of them sometimes when you can etc. And it would mean not be so demanding of them like the OP wishes. So what if their DPS is not on the high end, are you going make an issue of it and make everyone else feel bad?

As long as they are not trolls, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and if I can carry them I certainly don't mind.

[RegnumMagik]

Yes. I see it happen even in "top player" play. Some have legit excuses others are just lazy or care too much about their preferred rotation to make adjustments to better suit the group. To some it's just 1 button to others it may be 3 to take into consideration.

Yet if they don't do it and you're expecting them to do so and you're getting mad because they don't then it's your fault for not taking into consideration that they wont do it and optimizing around their form of play. You then become entitled and elitists when you start wanting to ban them because they didn't make your day.

Sure, if this was some regular 1 - 50 story or any dungeon without a single dps check I wouldn't have cared. Though, this was Lost City of Ampdapor and he barely meet the DPS check.

I'll give a tl:dr story to get my point across.

First, I was the other DPS. I was devoured for the first boss. He was using Fire I/Blizzard I spams and I was dead because there wasn't enough damage to free me. If I was never raised and the healer was never picked next, the run could easily be a cycle of wipes on the first boss.

The 2nd boss, tank was about to take a 5th stack before the boss was dead. Now, if I decide to not pull my weight as a DPS, and I don't know how far the healer can keep up before the tank will probably fall.

The last boss took 3 doors. This was the run I actually had to leave and come back as a tank because the original was gone. Luckily, we got a replacement DPS that actually pulls their weight so we didn't run out of doors.

Long story short, we did succeed the run. However, the run wouldn't of succeed if the OTHER THREE didn't pull their weight. Simple as that. If the whole group just press whatever buttons they wish then you will end with 90 minutes of fail.

[Tiggy]

There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.

But it should be obvious and self-evident that "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would not demand other players to optimize their DPS and play like some robot doing everything a close to perfect as possible, and certainly would not get mad at them for 1 mistake and kick like the elitist do.

But rather "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would mean it is ok to go slower, not speed run 100%, carry some of them sometimes when you can etc. And it would mean not be so demanding of them like the OP wishes. So what if their DPS is not on the high end, are you going make an issue of it and make everyone else feel bad?

As long as they are not trolls, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and if I can carry them I certainly don't mind.

I mean like giving advice in a kind manner.

"Hey <player name>, you can do it however you like and I don't intend to judge, but a lot of my <enter job here> friends tell me they get a lot of good results out of <insert combo or move here>. I figured I'd pass along the tip. I hope it helps."

You can advice people or give tips without sounding like a dbag, and I'm not a dbag if I said the above in a roulette. If that above is a problem then you're really just too picky to judge me in this thread or you need thicker skin. I'm not being mean, I'm not forcing my opinion, and I'm not getting angry. I'm just passing a tip. If passing someone a tip in a kind and non insulting manner is doing wrong then put me on santa's naughty list.

This attitude that any advice or tips is bad is just terrible. It's too extreme to be realistic. What should only be relevant is HOW we treat one another. Are we attacking that person? Are we sounding aggrivated which only breeds aggravated responses? If we simply treat each other kindly then we have nothing to worry about. It's not what we say, but how we say it that counts the most. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

People simply need to remember the Golden_Rule, and the Silver Rule when interacting with others and this entire thread would literally have no reason to exist.

[OPneedNerfs]

Just follow this simple rule:

"You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves"

If someone doesn't ask for your help, leave him be.

Let him stay "bad" as you would call it.

Chances of you ever seeing that person again are close to 0.

I can't stress how much easier this is to do now that Blacklist also blocks players from joining your PFs.

Word spreads, and people who cause wipes with bad attitudes will end up on alot of black lists.

Sooner or later, they'll either end up with a character that can't do any content through the PF or start a new character.

So I do agree with those who say "It's their money, let them play how they want" because in the long run, the ones it affect the most are themselves.

[Double]

snip

This case holds more weight since the situation does place the run at jeopardy.

Truth be told, I've yet to run into a BLM who only used fire I and Blizzard I. That type of mundane actions sounds much less of a player with intent to clear and more so the actions of a troll.

Curiosity within human psychology will make them explore their skill list as they leveled there way from 1 - 50; it's truly unheard of that a player would completely ignore every other spell they would have access to just for the sake of unwillingness to contend.

You have to be able to gauge these situations, your example falls more within acts of trolling or abuse rather than players who isn't interested with intention of completing the run.

There's a major difference between a person giving an honest attempt at clear and someone deliberately making the run as difficult as possible.

[Kerberon]

Just follow this simple rule:

"You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves"

If someone doesn't ask for your help, leave him be.

Let him stay "bad" as you would call it.

Chances of you ever seeing that person again are close to 0.

I can't stress how much easier this is to do now that Blacklist also blocks players from joining your PFs.

Word spreads, and people who cause wipes with bad attitudes will end up on alot of black lists.

Sooner or later, they'll either end up with a character that can't do any content through the PF or start a new character.

So I do agree with those who say "It's their money, let them play how they want" because in the long run, the ones it affect the most are themselves.

Here's the problem. As your average player runs into more and more militantly casual players who refuse to accept advice or tactics they turn more and more to statics and refuse to pug. The casuals run out of people to pug with as they can't clear content and quit. New players come in and can't find groups because everyone is already in a static. Eventually you lose some of the people in the statics and there are no longer new players coming in to refresh their numbers. The playerbase stagnates. After a period of stagnation the population keeps dropping and accelerates. Companies put in cash shops and try to cash in on whales at that point in a last ditch effort to keep the game profitable. I've seen games die this way. Let them play as they want kills games just as effectively as you suck newb, both are wrong and kill mmo's.

[Foo01]

...
The last boss took 3 doors. This was the run I actually had to leave and come back as a tank because the original was gone. Luckily, we got a replacement DPS that actually pulls their weight so we didn't run out of doors.
...

It alll smells like a troll you got. The tank got sick of the troll and left. Why did you feel that you need to come back be subjected to the troll? If I was the tank I would have ask the party if they think this guy was a troll especially if we were wiping multiple times because of the troll.

BTW what sort communication did you have with the BLM? Without further information you cannot determine how to make the call on this. But please don't generalize 1 player's bad behavior or the select few bad encounters that stick out and to say the rest of the player base that they don't care about their performance.

Here's the problem. As your average player runs into more and more militantly casual players who refuse to accept advice or tactics....

Come again militant casuals? Seriously? Does this even make any sense? Casuals don't care enough to be militant, beligerent, or any these troll behaviors. Those are trolls. Don't blame casuals for grief trolls cause. Who knows how trolls operate, but it doesn't take a genius to guess that trolls will hide under the guise of noobs/smurfs and try to grief your game. Vote kick them and report them.

I prefer not to talk about trolls because they are very rare (for comparison much rarer than the elitist speed runner that rage quits). In any case, this was a while back, but I had troll tank in Haukke manor normal on low level roulette. I was a healer, the tank ran off before even protect and got himself killed. I asked if he was new so we can have a game plan. So he started yelling about no heals and how he had a iLevel89 Bard, and then sat down at the bottom of the stairs demanding an apology. We vote kicked him and he joined back twice in progress and continued to demand apologies, eventually we just left. These militant types are never casual. The casuals don't have enough time to play as it is to waste their energies being militant. Needless to say, this one of the handful of trolls I ever had to report. I provided the GM all the chat transcripts and talked to them to help with their investigation.

.... turn more and more to statics and refuse to pug. The casuals run out of people to pug with as they can't clear content and quit. New players come in and can't find groups because everyone is already in a static.
....
Let them play as they want kills games just as effectively as you suck newb
...

This such bunch of BS. The elitist form their secret society of statics and exclude other players and keep people out, because that is what elitist want. And then they don't want be rubbing shoulders with the unwashed masses and leave the noobs to flounder on their own. Letting people play as they want was never the problem. Forcing people to play a certain way is what will drive the new players away. Trolls don't help, but to blame it on casual players this way is completely and utterly false. I wouldn't be surprised on bit if some bored elitist decided to troll thing like low level roulettes just to drive the new players away, because they only feel special if they up everyone else down.