I don't understand...

[Double]

snip

It happens more than often enough to strike a cord with a good number of people.

I fully understand you will run into mean people. It's the way of life; not everyone is all sunny day and happy smiles however it's becoming more and more clear that an awful lot of people here either lack serious social skills or has a hard time dealing with others.

I'm not asking for people to just shut up and play the game because that was never my intention. I'm asking now is; why so much hate within your own community?

This thread basically tells me that the OP doesn't like the way he sees most players play because he doesn't believe Players playing a certain way within potential successful runs is acceptable.

That type of thinking is ridiculous and unrealistic and it's amazing how serious some are taking it, further proving the point of "Entitlement Era".

[Kerberon]

because he doesn't believe Players playing a certain way within potential successful runs is acceptable.

That type of thinking is ridiculous and unrealistic and it's amazing how serious some are taking it, further proving the point of "Entitlement Era".

There is a sliding scale but it isn't. There is an eventual line where even if the group succeeded, a players gameplay may not have been acceptable because they played so poorly that they might as well have not been there. At this point they're not different than a player that is afk, and they are just being carried by people that did not sign up to carry others but to play as members of a team. You are on the exact opposite side of the argument as a rager that berates someone playing poorly, but both you and the rager are equally in the wrong.

[Double]

snip

That does hold truth but OP's claim isn't that a player is afk or deliberately ruining runs, his claim is that he believes most people he run into isn't playing the way he wants them to.

He never said these players are preventing clears, he never stated that players are afk. His claim is that players aren't playing the way he wants them to which is subjective and undefined.
The best remedy is to simply play with people you would rather play with but quite honestly, no one likes pressure and no one welcomes expectancy when it's not needed.

snip

If you're running into people such as that, kindly offer advice. Most of the time, sane people will listen and take note for future reference. Unfortunately, most advice begins like this:

"BLM wtf use thunder."
"MNK wtf do you even know your rotation?"
"DRG do you even combo?"

"Scrub whm casting regen before pulls."(This is after the party member that knows better lets them keep doing it while the whm probably is unaware that you pull hate from regen on pulls).

This is the norm, this is our community and it sickens me to see this type of behavior become acceptable among ourselves.

You can just forget asking about a fight..

[RegnumMagik]

It happens more than often enough to strike a cord with a good number of people.

I fully understand you will run into mean people. It's the way of life; not everyone is all sunny day and happy smiles however it's becoming more and more clear that an awful lot of people here either lack serious social skills or has a hard time dealing with others.

I'm not asking for people to just shut up and play the game because that was never my intention. I'm asking now is; why so much hate within your own community?

This thread basically tells me that the OP doesn't like the way he sees most players play because he doesn't believe Players playing a certain way within potential successful runs is acceptable.

That type of thinking is ridiculous and unrealistic and it's amazing how serious some are taking it, further proving the point of "Entitlement Era".

So is it unrealistic to expect people playing much more optimal by clicking different buttons with the same amount of work so terrible that I deserve to hang myself?

I'm just going to use my original post example.

Why use Fire I spam, then transpose and Blizzard I spam and repeat? Because it's their choice? Sure I guess you can say that.
But using Fire III, then Fire I spam, Blizzard III maybe scathe once for mana regen, repeat. Not only does this rotation does far more, it ALSO TAKES TWO MORE CLICK. TWO. SERIOUSLY. TWO. I'M NOT EVEN ASKING FOR THUNDER REFRESH.

Clearly my expectation is too high and I'm totally a 100% elitist and entitle to everything. Because clicking two extra buttons every rotation to shave 10 min off a run is guilty. Oh how terrible I am.

[Gormogon]

So is it unrealistic to expect people playing much more optimal by clicking different buttons with the same amount of work so terrible that I deserve to hang myself?

TAKES TWO MORE CLICK. TWO. SERIOUSLY. TWO. I'M NOT EVEN ASKING FOR THUNDER REFRESH.

Clearly my expectation is too high and I'm totally a 100% elitist and entitle to everything.

Yes. I see it happen even in "top player" play. Some have legit excuses others are just lazy or care too much about their preferred rotation to make adjustments to better suit the group. To some it's just 1 button to others it may be 3 to take into consideration.

Yet if they don't do it and you're expecting them to do so and you're getting mad because they don't then it's your fault for not taking into consideration that they wont do it and optimizing around their form of play. You then become entitled and elitists when you start wanting to ban them because they didn't make your day.

Why do you think people expect max dps? Is asking someone to try so and so forcing someone to max dps? So if I, as a tank, start my rotation without using any enmity ability (which is possible as a WAR) and a healer or dps asks me to begin with a rotation that generates threath, I can just blunlty ignore the guy? Or say I rather keep this rotation beause this is how I like it? Sure, it's possible, dps just needs to wait 10ish seconds to attack which isn't all that long right?

Suddenly this is different, because now it's a tank isn't it? If it's dps, who cares right? As long as you get through the dungeon. There is no point in trying stuff in an MMO. Everyone should just play how they want because if you ask someone to do fire I instead of fire III, you instantly brake their casual approach. (this is just an example, I don't play BLM so forgive me)

Now let's get real here please...

They are obsessed with pointless numbers and they let those numbers dictated their attitude and mentality approach to other players.

Which is why I hate parsers.

A bard using songs is more beneficial to the group than one not using songs just so he can try and keep his max dps numbers.
A Warrior who can keep Storm's Eye within his rotation, a Dragoon that can keep up Disembowel, and a Monk that can keep up Dragon Kick are beneficial to the group than one not doing so just to keep his max dps number.
Summoners and Black Mages who have the potential to help the group and mainly the tanks with Eye for an Eye, Apocatastasis, Lethargy, Virus, binds, and battle res.
Paladin's have cover, cure, and stoneskin while healers have ways to help mitigate damage as well as buff and contribute to dps.

It gets bad when those players intentionally hold back on those abilities just because they don't want to give another class a beneficial boost to their DPS so they can try and stay ahead with their numbers just to gloat.

[Odett]

snip.

You're talking about pointless numbers, then list skills that increase DPS?

A DRG does not achieve maximum DPS without Disembowel. Disembowel is great for BRDs in the group, but you as a DRG won't even achieve max DPS yourself unless you Disembowel, because all DRG attacks are piercing attacks (not to mention that you won't be able to use Chaos Thrust either).

DK with MNK isn't just for the party, the also won't achieve their best DPS if they don't apply it because every attack that they have, minus DoT ticks (those count as unaspected damage, Idk if the same applies to DRG) is a Blunt attack.

Most of the skills you listed for BLM/SMN are off the cooldown, so it won't affect their DPS. If they're not using these skills, it's not because it affects their DPS, but because they don't know any better.

PLD cover is an underused skill (and it won't ever be used when the tank doesn't use basic mitigation skills like Foresight and Rampart) I'll give you that one. PLD Cure, on the other hand, does EXTREMELY little healing, which can work on "off-phases" where you don't need to move, but 2 healers would top you off anyway when they're healing (or prehealing) the AoE damage that just happened, so it's a moot point (like a Titan jump). PLD SS like you said, is very useful.

Healers can contribute a whole lot to DPS, like you said, but not many of them do so.

I did not talk about BRDS because I do not have a lv 50 one, so I am not comfortable talking about them.

Here is where it gets frustrating. A DRG not using Disembowel and a MNK not using DK aren't abstaining from using said skills to boost their DPS because it actually lowers it (and greatly for DRG due to no CT either). You said in an earlier post not to give advice unless asked. Would you abstain from giving someone helpful advice that will not only boost the time of this run, but more importantly make these players better in the long run? If you're rudely spoken back to, or totally ignored, then that is frustrating. I've met a lot of players that say "why are you telling me this? No one is dying and we beat the dungeon." That's very true, but it could have gone a lot smoother if they had not spammed their Full Thrust combo (which WILL likely result in death from lack of DPS when they move on to harder Full Party fights), not to mention that it's a carry. You will also be met with even more rude remarks if you suggest to a healer that they can cleric dance and help with DPS if they want if the tank can effectively use defensive cooldowns.

[Gormogon]

You're talking about pointless numbers, then list skills that increase DPS?

I'm referring to individuals not using abilities that better suit the group to simply satisfy their numbers and trying to force results in their favor. Bards on average are the biggest offenders because they don't want to suffer that damage penalty from certain songs. Yet other jobs aren't exempt from that sort of behavior.

You said in an earlier post not to give advice unless asked. Would you abstain from giving someone helpful advice that will not only boost the time of this run, but more importantly make these players better in the long run? If you're rudely spoken back to, or totally ignored, then that is frustrating. I've met a lot of players that say "why are you telling me this? No one is dying and we beat the dungeon." That's very true, but it could have gone a lot smoother if they had not spammed their Full Thrust combo (which WILL likely result in death from lack of DPS when they move on to harder Full Party fights), not to mention that it's a carry. You will also be met with even more rude remarks if you suggest to a healer than they cleric dance and help with DPS if the tank can effectively use defensive cooldowns.

A player that wants to better himself will make it known to the group that he does want to improve. So you're free to "judge" and "criticize" his rotation so he gets better as long as it is done in a sincere manner.
A player that didn't ask for advice doesn't have to deal with your lecture. While you know the benefits of using a rotation or certain abilities in certain situations the individual in question did not ask for your 2 cents.

It's not gonna help them in the long run, in fact you are only doing a disservice to yourself and others by forcing those individuals to be stubborn about accepting advice.

When you're faced with those players your options are limited but simple.
1.) Carry them, regardless of your personal feelings regarding the issue. Stirring up drama over 1 player that everyone else in the group will have to deal with causes a more negative atmosphere than it ever will a positive one.
2.) Stall until he leaves. Eventually all those wipes are gonna get to the individual in question and will leave on his own.
3.) Start forming your own secluded parties that wont include such players.

Yet if your approach is to constantly try and force feed individuals your own standards well power to you.

[Tiggy]

There is nothing wrong with kindly giving advice when you meet a fresh player in a dungeon. Nothing at all. You can justify it in as many ways as you want, but being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others in a kind way is not bad.

[Foo01]

There is nothing wrong with kindly giving advice when you meet a fresh player in a dungeon. Nothing at all. You can justify it in as many ways as you want, but being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others in a kind way is not bad.

There is nothing wrong. But want is "kindly giving advice" from your perspective is "angry orders or busy body nanny state" from another. So it is very subjective what counts as kindly advice and what is not offensive to others.

But it should be obvious and self-evident that "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would not demand other players to optimize their DPS and play like some robot doing everything a close to perfect as possible, and certainly would not get mad at them for 1 mistake and kick like the elitist do.

But rather "being a kind and caring human being and trying to help others" would mean it is ok to go slower, not speed run 100%, carry some of them sometimes when you can etc. And it would mean not be so demanding of them like the OP wishes. So what if their DPS is not on the high end, are you going make an issue of it and make everyone else feel bad?

As long as they are not trolls, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and if I can carry them I certainly don't mind.

[RegnumMagik]

Yes. I see it happen even in "top player" play. Some have legit excuses others are just lazy or care too much about their preferred rotation to make adjustments to better suit the group. To some it's just 1 button to others it may be 3 to take into consideration.

Yet if they don't do it and you're expecting them to do so and you're getting mad because they don't then it's your fault for not taking into consideration that they wont do it and optimizing around their form of play. You then become entitled and elitists when you start wanting to ban them because they didn't make your day.

Sure, if this was some regular 1 - 50 story or any dungeon without a single dps check I wouldn't have cared. Though, this was Lost City of Ampdapor and he barely meet the DPS check.

I'll give a tl:dr story to get my point across.

First, I was the other DPS. I was devoured for the first boss. He was using Fire I/Blizzard I spams and I was dead because there wasn't enough damage to free me. If I was never raised and the healer was never picked next, the run could easily be a cycle of wipes on the first boss.

The 2nd boss, tank was about to take a 5th stack before the boss was dead. Now, if I decide to not pull my weight as a DPS, and I don't know how far the healer can keep up before the tank will probably fall.

The last boss took 3 doors. This was the run I actually had to leave and come back as a tank because the original was gone. Luckily, we got a replacement DPS that actually pulls their weight so we didn't run out of doors.

Long story short, we did succeed the run. However, the run wouldn't of succeed if the OTHER THREE didn't pull their weight. Simple as that. If the whole group just press whatever buttons they wish then you will end with 90 minutes of fail.