Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Aeshira]

I have to say I agree with the OP about the instant death mechanics. There are just too many of them and they make the game boring honestly. As long as you have can learn the dance, you will always win. If one person can't, you will pretty much always lose.

It is so heavy in this game that it makes all other types of player skill irrelevant. Sure you can have a couple of instant death mechanics here and there but especially in primal fights, that's all there is to a battle. Being able to do your rotations and having good gear only matters in a handful of DPS checks scattered throughout the game.

It's not that I want them to do away with the dance. Not dancing is just as boring. But it would be nice if they could find a balance. Right now it is 100% team jump rope (lol) or die. And that's just lame.

[Mooserocka33]

I agree. I only hate mechanic stuff cause if one person stinks it brings the party down. The good players can't do anything lol. I think I agree with what he said but the complete opposite spectrum

[Rose_Vilehart]

I have to say I agree with the OP about the instant death mechanics. There are just too many of them and they make the game boring honestly. As long as you have can learn the dance, you will always win. If one person can't, you will pretty much always lose.

It is so heavy in this game that it makes all other types of player skill irrelevant. Sure you can have a couple of instant death mechanics here and there but especially in primal fights, that's all there is to a battle. Being able to do your rotations and having good gear only matters in a handful of DPS checks scattered throughout the game.

It's not that I want them to do away with the dance. Not dancing is just as boring. But it would be nice if they could find a balance. Right now it is 100% team jump rope (lol) or die. And that's just lame.

The only part of the guys post i agree with, allagan rot and titan should have thier 1 hit kill moves because thats what makes the fight but we have way too many 1 hit kill moves

I agree. I only hate mechanic stuff cause if one person stinks it brings the party down. The good players can't do anything lol. I think I agree with what he said but the complete opposite spectrum

The "good players" should be picking up the slack like actual good players do, you are exaggerating way to much when you say 1 person (unless they are the only heal, srsly even a bad tank can be salvaged with a good enough heal) can screw up the dungeon/trial/raid entirely.

also you hate game mechanics?......................maybe its just because im taking a game design course right now but that was the dumbest thing i have seen on the thread

[Litre]

So i just ran garuda Extreme again: WTF are you guys talking about? this is why i love this game that fight was FUN, sure we wiped a few times but we got through it when we learned from our mistakes and all worked together, you might call it repetitive but i dont think that at all, also notice how a large majority of the people in favour of the op are people who have quit the game or have not logged into the game in ages..........

It was fun for me too, the first 20 times at least, I'll admit nowadays grinding for mirror even Leviathan EX is still fun once in a while when someone dies and you're racing the clock. The problem is it's like a multiplayer game not an MMO, after killing the boss enough times it gets boring, but in an MMO we want to take that weapon we earned and feel that the work was worth it. Now we do it for the initial fun, the hurrah moment of winning and then on to the next boss, if you are satisfied by just that, then like the OP says, read no further. Unfortunately many of us are not satisfied by just that.

Also, for those of you who think the current state of FFXIV is awesome, reading this might feel like a bit of a downer, so maybe you should not read any further if you're happy with things the way they are now.

So if you're happy with the game that's great, are you saying we should just lower our expectations or just learn to enjoy what we have? You'll also notice that many of us who agree with the OP really resonate with his FFXI references, it's because we were used to much more depth and meaning to our accomplishments, than just a pat on the back, we did it or the adrenaline rush once in a while.

The "good players" should be picking up the slack like actual good players do, you are exaggerating way to much when you say 1 person (unless they are the only heal, srsly even a bad tank can be salvaged with a good enough heal) can screw up the dungeon/trial/raid entirely.

also you hate game mechanics?......................maybe its just because im taking a game design course right now but that was the dumbest thing i have seen on the thread

The OP was very clear, some things are salvagable, but a tank getting hit by a divebomb maybe not so much: "In T5, there may be situations where you can recover from a poorly handled mechanic. But if you were to ask someone whether you can still win if the tanks died to a divebomb, the answer will always be "no"."
Or perhaps a Titan EX knock off the platform, maybe you can pull it off with -1 DPS, not 2 less probably. We're not saying there should be no unrecoverable mechanics but there are too many.

What we need is a balance between mechanics (make them less forgiving) and more dependency on gear - for a variety of reasons, we're now 25 pages deep, it'll be good to re-read the OP's post which was very well written and comment on that, rather than some people here who say mechanics are bad, some mechanics are fine, no arguments there.

[Rose_Vilehart]

It was fun for me too, the first 20 times at least, I'll admit nowadays grinding for mirror even Leviathan EX is still fun once in a while when someone dies and you're racing the clock. The problem is it's like a multiplayer game not an MMO, after killing the boss enough times it gets boring, but in an MMO we want to take that weapon we earned and feel that the work was worth it. Now we do it for the initial fun, the hurrah moment of winning and then on to the next boss, if you are satisfied by just that, then like the OP says, read no further. Unfortunately many of us are not satisfied by just that.

........oh look at that killing the same enemy a couple of times is not as fun as the first few times you did it, who knew? this is totally an RPG only problem and not a problem of all games even single players ones you are just replaying.........

[SongJoohee]

I agree. I only hate mechanic stuff cause if one person stinks it brings the party down. The good players can't do anything lol. I think I agree with what he said but the complete opposite spectrum

So it is working fine.

The Second Coil isn't meant to be easy. It's meant to be the cutting edge of content, the place where everyone in your party must perform to their best ability, where minimal mistakes are made for the best rewards. And even with the mechanics there, you can see in many videos, many players kills of Turns 6 7 8 and 9 are sloppy. The Turn 9 world first from Blue Garter had how many deaths? 5 or 6 wasn't it?

With Echo and the higher item level gear in the Extreme Primals and 1-5 you can have many many deaths and recover fine (See here: 6 deaths in P4 of Twintania, we still won ), and even before the Echo the reason you saw so many people selling content is because people dying in those contents aren't the be all and end all.

As for instant deaths in T5. It currently serves as a barrier to entry to second coil. If you can't beat T5, I'm sorry you don't have a chance in T6+. I'm sure in future patches Twintania and Coil 1-5 will be nerfed further, so just wait till then.

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As for OP... Way too much to reply too but I disagree with most of it. As I said above, Second Coil should be unforgiving. I kinda agree with you maybe Allagan Rot should be nerfed in T2 now since it is "casual content" but since 0-click is a thing there's not any need too. Saying item level/echo is irrelevant because of instant death mechanics is wrong. It makes recovering from those deaths more forgiving. The higher damage from the gear/echo means you will encounter less of the mechanics per phase, resulting in less likelyhood for people dying.

I find it mind boggling you say Turn 4 was perfect balance of difficulty. On DPS that fight is so boring, there's nothing to do other than slight positioning and other than that, 1 DPS check that was pretty easy at ilvl 70, let alone 90+echo, it's easier than T1, atleast in T1 I had to move from platforms and make sure the 2 Caduceus are dying at the same time, and way, way back I was on feed duty.

Saying mechanics/gimmicks are bad is really strange, so do you just want the bosses to auto attack and then the players just do dps/heal/tank and see who wins? Or is the boss actually allowed some mechanics, just ones that aren't too punishing otherwise the game is too hard and too "mechanic-focused"?

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And saying players would prefer random fights, I doubt it. You can already see how many teams hate Turn 7 because of how Melusines shrieks and the add spawning works, and that's not even random, it just changes each week because your DPS changes depending on drops and pushes Melusines phases at different timings. If players are getting annoyed at that, something that resembles random but isn't even random, imagine how annoyed they will get at truly random elements.

[Litre]

........oh look at that killing the same enemy a couple of times is not as fun as the first few times you did it, who knew? this is totally an RPG only problem and not a problem of all games even single players ones you are just replaying.........

No, I'm playing a game right now called Faster Than Light which is amazing! Random scenarios occur that I need to react to, even with a pause button the random elements make it exciting, multiple play-throughs have all been great. Right now FFXIV is almost completely scripted, that'll get boring much faster than if a fight introduced random elements that you need to react to.

And before you say it:

If you can't observe a preset, scripted battle it will be even tougher to do randomized battles.

I think you're forgetting a key other point the OP mentioned though, that the random effects you need to dodge are not insta-kill mechanics.

What's that mean? Well if you're a DPS with good gear, or a good healer, you can compensate for their screw up. This may motivate you to get better gear or try harder for that gear because you know it may turn around a fight, saving you and your friends time, a huge benefit I believe. Right now, there are some mechanics (not all) , where you can only watch helplessly as they get knocked out of action completely, from which the remaining party is unlikely to recover from. If the developers placed less emphasis on mechanics, then with good enough gear and skill the rest of the party should be able to compensate and win more easily - it's all about balance.

This brings us back to a very important point, IF gear was made more relevant, that would be an additional reason for players to beat the bosses, other than the hurrah of winning and adrenaline rush, which I can find in any multiplayer game. Even many multiplayer (non-MMO) games have rewards that improve your win-rate.

But currently in FFXIV, as the OP mentioned, there are too many mechanics that make gear completely irrelevant, if Leeroy in T5 forgets to dodge divebomb and knocks everyone into the purple fire it's an insta-wipe. What if with good enough gear that fire could be resisted up to 50% damage, the guy who screws up dies but everyone else who has good enough resist gear gets taken down to 2k HP, if healers are on the ball they may be able to get the tank back up fast then aoe cure the rest. I would take this implementation over an echo buff any day! At least when someone screws up there is some chance, even if it's 5% and with good gear 10% chance we could recover -not 0%.

And when T5 first is released, nobody should have resist gear high enough to survive this mechanic, but later on absolutely! Why shouldn't I be able to in 2 months from now, take my friend who just started into T5, with my superior gear and help him carry it? I want him to catch up to 3rd coil or whatever the current content is anyways, with the status quo even 5 months from now there will still be people who can't get this mechanic down 100% and it only takes 1 out of 8 to kill everyone.

Mechanics are awesome, they just need to be less debilitating, for "mainstream" players, a term which the OP coined, sometimes you'll have fun, other times it may be frustrating when someone screws up and causes the whole party to wipe. Right now that's all there is, but what if you could lick your wounds, and try to beat some other quests and get some other better weapon then go back and try again, except this time when someone screws up, your 10% extra healing wand is able to salvage the fight? Right now, in some fights, not all, it's not possible. Titan EX and T5 is the main example for now.

[Rose_Vilehart]

*snip*

actually no i was going to say this: you are asking a roleplaying a game..........a game in which you enter the role of someone usually in a fantasy world and follow them/you along their story and battles............to be completely randomized like FTL, which btw also has BS because whether or not you get enough parts to beat the last boss is ALSO random meaning you can play though the game only to find out the game screwed you, also FTL ships are not bosses, they are all basically just enemies, since the game take a strategy approach to it however they feel like bosses, the only actual boss is the last enemy and that boss has a slightly randomized ai but it is mostly scripted, i know i tested it......

Another thing you dont seem to understand: this is an rpg, most of the appeal of rpg bosses is looking at the boss, trying it, getting your ass whooped again and agian until you realize "ok i think i worked out his pattern now i know when to block/cast silence" and then figuring out the best strategy to beat them, this game would not benefit from bosses just doing random things halfway through the fight, no strategy would be able to be formulated and bosses would be considered "cheap", you destroy your own argument here.

[Raskbuck]

Emilia, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

As someone who has been playing since Beta/early access, I haven't touched the Extreme Primals or the Binding Coils of Bahamut due to similar reasons you have mentioned. The mechanics in and of itself can be quite intimidating for players who want to experience the content for the first time, and I believe that might be due to the excessive number of instant-death conditions.

I don't consider myself a bad player by any means, but it is incredibly frustrating to find groups that are willing to remove other people mainly due to these mechanics. Like you have pointed out, no amount of gear or Echo will fix the issue at its core.

So what kind of content is out there for those of us who don't want to deal with these mechanics? Well, there is crafting; which is essentially irrelevant in the market and has little to no place in high-level endgame. Truth is, there is not much to do for us "casuals" that have no interest in Coils or Extreme Primals, and that is discouraging.

I want Square Enix to succeed, so don't take this as an attack. I sincerely hope they start addressing these things in the future patches.

[Litre]

Another thing you dont seem to understand: this is an rpg, most of the appeal of rpg bosses is looking at the boss, trying it, getting your ass whooped again and agian until you realize "ok i think i worked out his pattern now i know when to block/cast silence" and then figuring out the best strategy to beat them, this game would not benefit from bosses just doing random things halfway through the fight, no strategy would be able to be formulated and bosses would be considered "cheap", you destroy your own argument here.

I do understand that appeal, I agreed that bosses are fun and the mechanics are great, and I do love the challenge of figuring out bosses, formulating strategies, etc... we want phases and some predictability of course BUT you are taking a total extreme here, I am not, and I hope nobody is advocating for completely random fights!

The OP and I both believe that the mechanics are too unforgiving, and there needs to be a better balance between mechanics, DPS checks and "some" (not complete) randomness.


- There should be some things that I can expect coming, and plan to dodge and memorize for, such as phases, mechanics and coordinated telegraphed attacks, but if it hits me it should not wipe the party.
- There should also be elements that I need to react to, and therefore are reliant on reflexes, not memorization

The benefit from this balance is that items are more relevant, if someone else fails to dodge the mechanic the party doesn't wipe and with good enough gear you can overcome that setback. If you fail to dodge a random attack through a small mistake you should not wipe either.

All FFXI players come from a game where there is a healthy balance between mechanics and reactionary situations, all these challenges can be surmounted with good enough gear, but only months after the content is released. This way the hardcore get a chance to beat it at the start and when they get better gear, they can help their guildmates through it later. This gives me an incentive to obtain that gear, which is also absent from the game due to the heavy reliance on insta-kill mechanics. In Second Coil, insta-kill mechanics are fine since this is the highest tier end-game, but why are storyline fights like this too? Like the OP says it leads to more frustration than there should be and some people giving up.

If SQEnix gave me an item, that enabled Tempered Will (knockback resist, probably specific to Earth damage at a certain level for balance purposes) on a 30 second timer, imagine the instant appeal! It should only be obtainable through far harder content, but still I would aim for that immediately, why? Because I have tons of friends in my LS that still have a hard time clearing Titan EX. But right now there is no such item, Titan EX you win or lose based on mechanics, if just a few people make one mistake, then no item and nobody can salvage the fight.