Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Rose_Vilehart]

So i just ran garuda Extreme again: WTF are you guys talking about? this is why i love this game that fight was FUN, sure we wiped a few times but we got through it when we learned from our mistakes and all worked together, you might call it repetitive but i dont think that at all, also notice how a large majority of the people in favour of the op are people who have quit the game or have not logged into the game in ages..........

[Susanoh]

So i just ran garuda Extreme again: WTF are you guys talking about? this is why i love this game that fight was FUN, sure we wiped a few times but we got through it when we learned from our mistakes and all worked together, you might call it repetitive but i dont think that at all, also notice how a large majority of the people in favour of the op are people who have quit the game or have not logged into the game in ages..........

That's cool if you enjoy the fight, but I think a fight that repeats itself in the exact same way from beginning to end every time would be considered repetitive by any definition.

[Rose_Vilehart]

That's cool if you enjoy the fight, but I think a fight that repeats itself in the exact same way from beginning to end every time would be considered repetitive by any definition.

And yet still more fun and interesting than this entire thread would lead me to believe and ANYTHING on wow (before you say anything, yes i played wow for years i really didn't like it, only didn't leave because of my guild i was actually kinda happy when it got full of assholes cause it meant i was free), hell the entire party had massive fun with it and a lot of other in game content so that says a lot to me about these forums.

[Litre]

So i just ran garuda Extreme again: WTF are you guys talking about? this is why i love this game that fight was FUN, sure we wiped a few times but we got through it when we learned from our mistakes and all worked together, you might call it repetitive but i dont think that at all, also notice how a large majority of the people in favour of the op are people who have quit the game or have not logged into the game in ages..........

It was fun for me too, the first 20 times at least, I'll admit nowadays grinding for mirror even Leviathan EX is still fun once in a while when someone dies and you're racing the clock. The problem is it's like a multiplayer game not an MMO, after killing the boss enough times it gets boring, but in an MMO we want to take that weapon we earned and feel that the work was worth it. Now we do it for the initial fun, the hurrah moment of winning and then on to the next boss, if you are satisfied by just that, then like the OP says, read no further. Unfortunately many of us are not satisfied by just that.

Also, for those of you who think the current state of FFXIV is awesome, reading this might feel like a bit of a downer, so maybe you should not read any further if you're happy with things the way they are now.

So if you're happy with the game that's great, are you saying we should just lower our expectations or just learn to enjoy what we have? You'll also notice that many of us who agree with the OP really resonate with his FFXI references, it's because we were used to much more depth and meaning to our accomplishments, than just a pat on the back, we did it or the adrenaline rush once in a while.

The "good players" should be picking up the slack like actual good players do, you are exaggerating way to much when you say 1 person (unless they are the only heal, srsly even a bad tank can be salvaged with a good enough heal) can screw up the dungeon/trial/raid entirely.

also you hate game mechanics?......................maybe its just because im taking a game design course right now but that was the dumbest thing i have seen on the thread

The OP was very clear, some things are salvagable, but a tank getting hit by a divebomb maybe not so much: "In T5, there may be situations where you can recover from a poorly handled mechanic. But if you were to ask someone whether you can still win if the tanks died to a divebomb, the answer will always be "no"."
Or perhaps a Titan EX knock off the platform, maybe you can pull it off with -1 DPS, not 2 less probably. We're not saying there should be no unrecoverable mechanics but there are too many.

What we need is a balance between mechanics (make them less forgiving) and more dependency on gear - for a variety of reasons, we're now 25 pages deep, it'll be good to re-read the OP's post which was very well written and comment on that, rather than some people here who say mechanics are bad, some mechanics are fine, no arguments there.

[Rose_Vilehart]

It was fun for me too, the first 20 times at least, I'll admit nowadays grinding for mirror even Leviathan EX is still fun once in a while when someone dies and you're racing the clock. The problem is it's like a multiplayer game not an MMO, after killing the boss enough times it gets boring, but in an MMO we want to take that weapon we earned and feel that the work was worth it. Now we do it for the initial fun, the hurrah moment of winning and then on to the next boss, if you are satisfied by just that, then like the OP says, read no further. Unfortunately many of us are not satisfied by just that.

........oh look at that killing the same enemy a couple of times is not as fun as the first few times you did it, who knew? this is totally an RPG only problem and not a problem of all games even single players ones you are just replaying.........

[Litre]

........oh look at that killing the same enemy a couple of times is not as fun as the first few times you did it, who knew? this is totally an RPG only problem and not a problem of all games even single players ones you are just replaying.........

No, I'm playing a game right now called Faster Than Light which is amazing! Random scenarios occur that I need to react to, even with a pause button the random elements make it exciting, multiple play-throughs have all been great. Right now FFXIV is almost completely scripted, that'll get boring much faster than if a fight introduced random elements that you need to react to.

And before you say it:

If you can't observe a preset, scripted battle it will be even tougher to do randomized battles.

I think you're forgetting a key other point the OP mentioned though, that the random effects you need to dodge are not insta-kill mechanics.

What's that mean? Well if you're a DPS with good gear, or a good healer, you can compensate for their screw up. This may motivate you to get better gear or try harder for that gear because you know it may turn around a fight, saving you and your friends time, a huge benefit I believe. Right now, there are some mechanics (not all) , where you can only watch helplessly as they get knocked out of action completely, from which the remaining party is unlikely to recover from. If the developers placed less emphasis on mechanics, then with good enough gear and skill the rest of the party should be able to compensate and win more easily - it's all about balance.

This brings us back to a very important point, IF gear was made more relevant, that would be an additional reason for players to beat the bosses, other than the hurrah of winning and adrenaline rush, which I can find in any multiplayer game. Even many multiplayer (non-MMO) games have rewards that improve your win-rate.

But currently in FFXIV, as the OP mentioned, there are too many mechanics that make gear completely irrelevant, if Leeroy in T5 forgets to dodge divebomb and knocks everyone into the purple fire it's an insta-wipe. What if with good enough gear that fire could be resisted up to 50% damage, the guy who screws up dies but everyone else who has good enough resist gear gets taken down to 2k HP, if healers are on the ball they may be able to get the tank back up fast then aoe cure the rest. I would take this implementation over an echo buff any day! At least when someone screws up there is some chance, even if it's 5% and with good gear 10% chance we could recover -not 0%.

And when T5 first is released, nobody should have resist gear high enough to survive this mechanic, but later on absolutely! Why shouldn't I be able to in 2 months from now, take my friend who just started into T5, with my superior gear and help him carry it? I want him to catch up to 3rd coil or whatever the current content is anyways, with the status quo even 5 months from now there will still be people who can't get this mechanic down 100% and it only takes 1 out of 8 to kill everyone.

Mechanics are awesome, they just need to be less debilitating, for "mainstream" players, a term which the OP coined, sometimes you'll have fun, other times it may be frustrating when someone screws up and causes the whole party to wipe. Right now that's all there is, but what if you could lick your wounds, and try to beat some other quests and get some other better weapon then go back and try again, except this time when someone screws up, your 10% extra healing wand is able to salvage the fight? Right now, in some fights, not all, it's not possible. Titan EX and T5 is the main example for now.

[Rose_Vilehart]

*snip*

actually no i was going to say this: you are asking a roleplaying a game..........a game in which you enter the role of someone usually in a fantasy world and follow them/you along their story and battles............to be completely randomized like FTL, which btw also has BS because whether or not you get enough parts to beat the last boss is ALSO random meaning you can play though the game only to find out the game screwed you, also FTL ships are not bosses, they are all basically just enemies, since the game take a strategy approach to it however they feel like bosses, the only actual boss is the last enemy and that boss has a slightly randomized ai but it is mostly scripted, i know i tested it......

Another thing you dont seem to understand: this is an rpg, most of the appeal of rpg bosses is looking at the boss, trying it, getting your ass whooped again and agian until you realize "ok i think i worked out his pattern now i know when to block/cast silence" and then figuring out the best strategy to beat them, this game would not benefit from bosses just doing random things halfway through the fight, no strategy would be able to be formulated and bosses would be considered "cheap", you destroy your own argument here.

[Litre]

Another thing you dont seem to understand: this is an rpg, most of the appeal of rpg bosses is looking at the boss, trying it, getting your ass whooped again and agian until you realize "ok i think i worked out his pattern now i know when to block/cast silence" and then figuring out the best strategy to beat them, this game would not benefit from bosses just doing random things halfway through the fight, no strategy would be able to be formulated and bosses would be considered "cheap", you destroy your own argument here.

I do understand that appeal, I agreed that bosses are fun and the mechanics are great, and I do love the challenge of figuring out bosses, formulating strategies, etc... we want phases and some predictability of course BUT you are taking a total extreme here, I am not, and I hope nobody is advocating for completely random fights!

The OP and I both believe that the mechanics are too unforgiving, and there needs to be a better balance between mechanics, DPS checks and "some" (not complete) randomness.


- There should be some things that I can expect coming, and plan to dodge and memorize for, such as phases, mechanics and coordinated telegraphed attacks, but if it hits me it should not wipe the party.
- There should also be elements that I need to react to, and therefore are reliant on reflexes, not memorization

The benefit from this balance is that items are more relevant, if someone else fails to dodge the mechanic the party doesn't wipe and with good enough gear you can overcome that setback. If you fail to dodge a random attack through a small mistake you should not wipe either.

All FFXI players come from a game where there is a healthy balance between mechanics and reactionary situations, all these challenges can be surmounted with good enough gear, but only months after the content is released. This way the hardcore get a chance to beat it at the start and when they get better gear, they can help their guildmates through it later. This gives me an incentive to obtain that gear, which is also absent from the game due to the heavy reliance on insta-kill mechanics. In Second Coil, insta-kill mechanics are fine since this is the highest tier end-game, but why are storyline fights like this too? Like the OP says it leads to more frustration than there should be and some people giving up.

If SQEnix gave me an item, that enabled Tempered Will (knockback resist, probably specific to Earth damage at a certain level for balance purposes) on a 30 second timer, imagine the instant appeal! It should only be obtainable through far harder content, but still I would aim for that immediately, why? Because I have tons of friends in my LS that still have a hard time clearing Titan EX. But right now there is no such item, Titan EX you win or lose based on mechanics, if just a few people make one mistake, then no item and nobody can salvage the fight.

[Raskbuck]

Emilia, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

As someone who has been playing since Beta/early access, I haven't touched the Extreme Primals or the Binding Coils of Bahamut due to similar reasons you have mentioned. The mechanics in and of itself can be quite intimidating for players who want to experience the content for the first time, and I believe that might be due to the excessive number of instant-death conditions.

I don't consider myself a bad player by any means, but it is incredibly frustrating to find groups that are willing to remove other people mainly due to these mechanics. Like you have pointed out, no amount of gear or Echo will fix the issue at its core.

So what kind of content is out there for those of us who don't want to deal with these mechanics? Well, there is crafting; which is essentially irrelevant in the market and has little to no place in high-level endgame. Truth is, there is not much to do for us "casuals" that have no interest in Coils or Extreme Primals, and that is discouraging.

I want Square Enix to succeed, so don't take this as an attack. I sincerely hope they start addressing these things in the future patches.

[Ooshima]

Snip

I can understand where that point is coming from but I'm still not agreeing to it.

Some fights are meant to have a certain sense of difficulty, some fights are meant to be the toughest, like coil2.

Whilst gear itself can be seen as largely irrelevant to instant kill mechanics, but the thing is not all mechanics are instant kill. In fact, most are not. This is where gear could help you in a way or another.

Higher HP means you can endure hits better, for example, less prone to getting knocked out by tumults when you didn't manage to get topped off earlier. Higher HP from gears also helps you in enduring big hits such as Circle of Flames from Melusine or able to eat Nael's double dive without heals or you could eat double dive with a Second Wind self heal if your healers happened to get caught in something else.

Having better gear also ensure that you can deal more damage given the same skill level which actually can save the fight when shit hits the fan. For example, in one of my recent carry runs on Titan EX, 2 DPS accidentally fell down due to miscomm and it was left with me (BRD) and a SMN. Because we are so geared (i110 weapons and average ilvl over 100) we can still go past Superbombs safely. Of course this is an example if being severely overgearred but it doesn't change the fact that gear helps. In fact Titan EX was doable with 3 DPS back then in 2.1 with i90 gears shows that gear can help.

Some of these tough mechanics are recoverable thou. We've recovered from 1-2 deaths from kiters and healers in T7, dead DPS on Turn 8. I've seen many teams on Turn 9 having DPS die a couple of times and still cleared. Depends on the severity of the mistake - and of course, gear helps in here. When starting out in T9 with i95ish gears having your DPS die 1 or 2 time may result in you hitting the enraged timer, but as you gear up having your DPS die 1 or 2 times to divebombs or elemental attacks aren't too bad as your other geared DPS can cover for the loss. Gear is not that irrelevant, but only irrelevant when you make big ass mistakes such as firing your curse voice across the area and freezing almost everyone else.

With all these said, let us recall that most of the most punishing mechanics are either scripted or have some major indicator coming. One shouldn't be caught surprised by it. Say T5, Twintania disappears and you know it's time for divebombs so by the conventional strat, move your butt into the pit and get ready. There's really quite some time allowance there, it's not like DB indicators come 1s after Twinny disappears. The reason you can't make it in time is probably you are losing concentration. Cursed Voice from T7 have a timer ranging from 5s-9s - misfiring it is totally your fault (yes at times I lost concentration and misfire too).

Let us discount those who insist that they enter blind - with so many nice players out there making written guides and video guides, and assuming that the player have practiced umpteen times on it but still making the same old mistake (such as eating Lunar Dynamo on T9 after say hours of practice) - who else other than that player is to blame?

Don't get me wrong thou. I won't say I am a hardcore elitist but I won't say I'm not one. But I will try to be fair whenever I can. In this case I can only say that if one have did their homework and after hours of practice and making the same mistake over and over again, either keep practicing and improve yourself, if not that player is really undeserving to clear. I do get punished when I failed mechanics myself and I could only blame myself for it. I mean I know what's coming and I still failed to it afterall - it's like you see an oncoming train and you still walked into it

Ultimately it is up to SE to decide the direction of the game. So far what I can only see is that SE have no intention to make this a game catered to the hardcore but trying to be as inclusive as they can. Not perfect as they are now and there are still issues such as server lags which they could address better, but I can see a certain direction. It appears that SE wants to make it all inclusive so I won't be surprised that coil will be as tough as they could offer without making it overly hardcore.

Meanwhile if anyone wants to play a game where things aren't as punishing maybe there are some more casual MMOs or even single player RPGs out there which gear does make things easier, allowing you to faceroll through it (most FF non MMOs are like that anyways, grind and overpower yourself and the story boss is a joke). There are really a lot of games out there with vairying difficulty from mindless hack and slash to some kind of difficulty where you have to learn a combat system, gear attributes or even managing combos etc.

Practically speaking I think SE have been accommodating to suggestions or request that they would accommodate. But if their direction is to make this came accommodating all players from casuals to hardcores, then it is inevitable that coil will be tough. It would be inevitable that there will be very very punishing mechanics that would differentiate those who has the skill to manage it or those who simply can't, such as those who still dies to T5 divebombs despite trying for months. As such if one thinks that this game is too tough then one should probably move on to a more enjoyable game. Don't get me wrong again here but what I mean is there is no point paying for a game you won't even find it enjoyable and entertaining. I'm sure Yoshida gets this himself that he will not able to satisfy everyone.

The game is still new and personally I'm still watching it. TBH I don't find 2.2 as enjoyable as 2.1 - 2.1 is still the most enjoyable patch. The balls is still on Yoshida and his team to decide the direction of the game, whether they could convince their bosses that this is the direction and to convince them that this is the direction despite any sales loss or that this direction is the result of the good sales they get etc. In fact Yoshida may not even have that much power we think he have. It may be even up to SE higher ups to decide FF14 should be a game with some difficult but may get lesser revenue or to cheese it to grab more casual sales. But certainly if FF14 degrades to something like KOEI's Dynasty Warriors series I wouldn't be paying a monthly subscription of this much to play it though.