When to use Flare?

[Maero]

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it better to stick to a single-target rotation if there are only 2 mobs?

Another time you can use flare is at the end of your single-target rotation if you have swiftcast & convert up. Of course you only want to do this if you don't need the swiftcast & convert up later for certain DPS checks.

I wouldn't say never use Fire 2, because some tanks simply can't handle Flare spam, unfortunately. You may have to use Fire 2's in situations where the tank can't handle you generating hate as quickly as you will using Flare spam.

And this ^

[scarebearz]

Oh yeah, and don't use Fire 2. Like, ever. As soon as you have Flare, it is obsolete.

Learn the double Flare rotation. Love the double Flare rotation. Be the best you you can be.

To be honest I think this is pretty bad advice.

[NoctisUmbra]

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

What do you do after you Transpose in your AoE rotation then? Please, do tell.

If it involves Transpose > Blizzard (III) > Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > Transpose then I'm sorry to break it to you but the double Flare rotation is superior DPS. The only way it would dip below the Fire II rotation is if you screw it up.

When I refer to the double Flare rotation, I do not mean the opening rotation where everybody would use 2-3 Flares with access to Convert and an Ether. I'm referring to the extended rotation, where you chose to use 2 Flares between your Transposes instead of using any single target spells or Fire II.

To be honest I think this is pretty bad advice.

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

[JetBrooks]

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

Flare spam is friggin great when you can use it, though.

[NoctisUmbra]

It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

I guess if you're going to nitpick for hypothetical scenarios, especially ones that are fairly uncommon like the one you mentioned, then I suppose you can come up with a reason to use Fire II - though in a scenario such as that one I'd probably just switch to my single target rotation straight away and burn own the remaining two.

As for the tanks who can't hold hate scenario, that's not an excuse to use Fire II. Not even remotely. That's effectively busy work. If you get a tank in DF that has significantly lesser gear than you, sure this will force you to hold back on DPS (provided even Quelling Strikes isn't enough to keep you safe, which... that's pushing it since it should still be possible even with a reasonable gear difference). However, if the goal here is to reduce your DPS, why keep yourself busy using a lesser skill? May as well wait longer between Flares. Same effect.

In any other scenario, if I am expected to be doing an AoE rotation as a BLM, then the tank is expected to be holding AoE hate. It has all the tools, and no excuses. No, I will not play less effectively because the tank doesn't know how to play better. As a player who plays both tanks and all DPS jobs, I will take the time to figure out with said player why they are unable to maintain hate - which shouldn't be too hard because it will end with "spam Flash/Overpower".


Haven't seen a single reason yet to actually put Fire II on my bars

[NyneAlexander]

The best advice as to why NOT to use the infinite flare rotation is you have to have a good grasp of the refresh timing of mana regen and be able to somewhat glitch the system to get a mana tick AS your flare is going off. This takes practice and skill, far more than being able to calculate when a fire II will take you below the MP minimum to cast flare.

[NoctisUmbra]

The best advice as to why NOT to use the infinite flare rotation is you have to have a good grasp of the refresh timing of mana regen and be able to somewhat glitch the system to get a mana tick AS your flare is going off. This takes practice and skill, far more than being able to calculate when a fire II will take you below the MP minimum to cast flare.

Yes, playing well takes practice and skill.

That said, as far as properly timing your first Flare to get this to work, the window of input is approximately half a second wide. This is a rather large window, and one that is quite easy to get accustomed to with a bit of practice at the dummies. Just a few minutes should be enough, provided you know more or less where the window is, which as was mentioned is roughly just under 2 seconds after your first tick of MP.

Any BLM that would like to play their job optimally is encouraged to learn this, and love it, as I said earlier. Any BLM who is satisfied doing sub-optimal DPS can carry on doing Fire IIs.

[Maero]

sub-optimal dps, lol
This coming from someone who is using flare after transpose?
You do realize casting flare in UI is less dmg then if you would cast in AF? And practice on dummies, yeah not optimal at all.
And i only transpose after 3 flares, also you will want to use both Quelling and Raging Strikes in your rotation
post on reddit
Doing three Fire II at the start is better than going straight to Flare. Not by a lot, but it is overall higher DPS.
"F3>Flare is 62.4 pot/s.
F3>F2>F2>F2>Flare (so, using all MP) is 61 pot/s."
It is quite true that going straight to Flare is higher potency per second, but this doesn't take into account the duration over which you're achieving that potency per second. Both have higher potency per second over Transpose > Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare, so you want to do as much damage in the opening rotation as possible. The rotation including the 3 Fire IIs last twice as long, so it does more damage overall.

[Maero]

Apparently character limit
Fire 2 is still very useful and even so in coil
Perhaps if you use Fire 3 after your transpose it would be fine, but flare directly after transpose, nope

[NoctisUmbra]

Yes, the first of the 2 Flares will be weaker, as it is in Umbral Ice, however the 2nd Flare is fully powered because the first one puts you into Astral Fire III.

Furthermore, due to the vast difference in potency between Fire II and Flare, and the fact that the double Flare rotation entirely skips the use of Blizzard spells or Fire III (a GCD wasted on a single target), the Double Flare rotation comes out on top - by a hefty margin.

I have tested this. Thoroughly. Being a DPS main who enjoys playing each DPS job at full capacity, I have theorycrafted/tested/researched each one of them. Not to mention that since it is actually pretty widely accepted that a properly executed double Flare rotation is superior to the typical Fire II-involved rotation, I can't help but wonder: what rock have you been casting under?

Since you claim to have tested this, I have to conclude that you tested poorly. My guess is you tested DPS on dummies and compared the double Flare rotation to your standard one, which involves the use of Fire III and a Blizzard spell. That's 2 single-target spells, and thus would register as higher DPS on the target itself, but not on the pack as a whole.

Either that, or you never actually properly tested the double Flare rotation in question yourself, and simply dismissed it assuming that the use of Flare to attain AF3 rather than Fire III was bad/silly/worse/etc.

Also...

The rotation including the 3 Fire IIs last twice as long, so it does more damage overall.

That makes absolutely no sense lol.