Dragoons need to be buffed...

[Karasumori]

I'm inclined to agree that DRG's need something in the way of a buff. Player's like to claim positional awareness is so much more challenging on a MNK when the only loss is potency yet they still are allowed to combo into their next ability. On DRG any missed positional attack renders your next combo null and void. And from my experience even when I appear to tag an enemy from the flank while it's moving using heavy thrust the effect doesn't render. It's similar to casters trying to land a spell while a target is moving and the spell just gets canceled. And for some reason the vast majority of enemies in coil can only be "silenced" yet never "stunned" rendering leg sweep and spineshatter dive as nothing more than filler for weaving.

[Riichi]

On DRG any missed positional attack renders your next combo null and void. And from my experience even when I appear to tag an enemy from the flank while it's moving using heavy thrust the effect doesn't render.

This common argument is quite irritating. All DRG positional requirements are at the beginning of their combos, which means it's not like they have to restart an entire chain for missing a positional. Basically all you lost was a little bit of potency, which is exactly what would happen to a MNK if they miss a positional. The end effect is still the same where you both lose about 50 potency in that specific GCD.

[ChaozK]

This common argument is quite irritating. All DRG positional requirements are at the beginning of their combos, which means it's not like they have to restart an entire chain for missing a positional. Basically all you lost was a little bit of potency, which is exactly what would happen to a MNK if they miss a positional. The end effect is still the same where you both lose about 50 potency in that specific GCD.

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

[givemeraptors]

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

That's fine, but MNK also has more opportunities to lose a positional, thus over time balancing out the positional DPS loss between the classes. I'd wager a MNK loses more positional bonuses than a DRG, simply because they have more chances to do so.

Anyway whatever, I feel like we're saying the same thing and our difference of opinion is mostly semantics etc. etc. DRG is in a good position. Whatever DPS they lack is made up for by the increase in damage a BRD gets from Disembowel and should be counted as DRG DPS because it is damage the DRG makes possible, just like how Foe's Requiem DPS should be counted as BRD DPS (in my opinion). I don't think it's standard practice to "shift" DPS numbers from one class to another like that, but it seems entirely appropriate to me.

[kukurumei]

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

WTF are you talking about. No dps much less a drg will macro rotations. if you can't modify your rotation and work your damage into the content at hand..then much less a drg, you won't even be an effective mnk,brd,blm,smn, etc, etc, etc.

If you're going to say "wa, wa I miss a ID, my rotation and dps has gone to heck, boo I better pop b2b because my rotation is set that way".

That's all you, not the job.

Just like you don't pop all your CD and then have a primal jump. It's your own dang fault for not matching the pace of a fight.

Any dps will change their rotation and buffs to accommodate for mishaps, scripts, and mechanics.

IF you miss a ID, big freaking woop, ID again, shorten your rotation, and weave back into a proper rotation.

and I don't think you even know mnk to speak of it. Mnks have to switch up their rotation as natural as breathing, much less a simple drg retry rotation.

If you miss an ID, big deal, modify your rotation. If you miss a heavy thrust, big deal, drgs always start a rotation on HT.

Try asking a blm how many time he cries when he has to sit on a firestarter that can't be used. Cry me a river.

[Riichi]

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

I'll let you in on an ancient Dragoon secret on Heavy Thrust. Ready? If you miss....cast it again...
I've taken the liberty of constructing a nice, visual mathematical representation for you so you can hopefully understand it.
Here's your ideal combo without buffs/weaving, since that wouldn't matter anyways. Underneath that will be a combo with a missed HT at the start with the same amount of GCD's used. (Filler TT at the end of first for equal GCD use)

HT + HT+ ID + DB +CT+ PHB+TT + VT +FT+ HT +TT + VT +FT
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+150 = 3070 potency
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020 potency

So you missed your HT. Big whoop. Do it again. If a DRG misses a positional, they lose potency. If a MNK misses a positional, they lose potency as well. The only difference is MNK shifts stances. However, a MNK changing stances doesn't mean they finish their "combo" with a high potency or powerful skill, making the basis of that comparison incredibly weak.

[ChaozK]

HT + HT+ ID + DB +CT+ PHB+TT + VT +FT+ HT +TT + VT +FT
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+150 = 3070 potency
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020 potency

Now let me show you how that rotation should actually look like
HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT+PB
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+320 = 3240
Compared to
HT+HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020

No reason to use your weakest move next. The more time you spent using weak moves, the less time you are using your strong ones.
I am flaberghasted that this seems to be such a hard concept for some people to understand.

Edit: EMX did a more researched calculation on this but on average, a missed positional seems to amount to roughly 140ish potency on DRG iirc, depending on what and where you miss and how it affects your optimal rotation.

[Lemon8or]

HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT+PB

Actually, if you want to use rotation, here:
HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT
Sure, it would seem that DRG would lose 230 potency (+100-330 Math is hard) over the duration of this rotation, but wait there's more. If you continue with a FT while the optimal rotation goes to HT, you actually only lose 70 potency. The point is how much you lose also depends on where in the rotation you end it.
DRG: mandatory position, missed positional on 1 attack results in very varied, higher potency loss on average, only have 5 skills to hit in a 24 GCD rotations.
MNK: non-mandatory position, missed positional on 1 attack results in lower potency loss on average, have to worry about that 24 times in a 24 GCD rotations.

[ChaozK]

Actually, if you want to use rotation, here:
HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT
Sure, it would seem that DRG would lose 230 potency (+100-330 Math is hard) over the duration of this rotation, but wait there's more. If you continue with a FT while the optimal rotation goes to HT, you actually only lose 70 potency. The point is how much you lose also depends on where in the rotation you end it.

I see where you are coming from but its a bit more complex than that, always resulting in a higher potency loss than 70. How much you lose depends on where you end the rotation this is true. In the optimal rotation in the example for 13 hits you would lose out on a PB for 320 versus a missed HT for 100, resulting in 220 potency lost. As you say depending on where you end the rotation this loss might be lower. Thats why Riichi came to a loss of only 50 potency because he compared a missed HT 100 potency to a TT for 150, although its pretty clear that you already lose 70 just from the missed positional attack alone (HT from flank 170 pot vs HT not from flank 100).

Now if you want the average potency loss you have to compare the missed HT to the average potency of all DRG attacks used in the rotation which is exactly 258.75 (170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330/8).

Everytime you are doing a missed positional for 100 potency, you are not doing 258.75, so a loss of 158.75 potency on average. Technically its a bit higher than that since we are not acounting fos buffs yet.
Hope i could clear it up a bit without making it too complicated.

[Riichi]

Now let me show you how that rotation should actually look like
HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT+PB
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+320 = 3240
Compared to
HT+HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020

No reason to use your weakest move next. The more time you spent using weak moves, the less time you are using your strong ones.
I am flaberghasted that this seems to be such a hard concept for some people to understand.

Edit: EMX did a more researched calculation on this but on average, a missed positional seems to amount to roughly 140ish potency on DRG iirc, depending on what and where you miss and how it affects your optimal rotation.

As Lemon said, it all depends on where you end your combo. But it seems you like using incorrect math to prove your point, while I prefer using a filler for simplicity and fairness. But since you're trying to "cheat" your numbers, I'll be happy to shoot you down. Ending the numbers there with PB in your rotation is going to add only 170 potency, not 320, as the dots aren't going to have any time to tick. You're complaining that you lose out huge on missed positionals? Then get good. You should know the fights well enough to predict a turn from the boss (Turn 7 comes to mind). A good DRG will either adapt and alter their rotation, or be good enough to land the positional anyways. Also like Lemon said, you have 5 skills to hit on a 24 GCD rotation. If a boss turns, you can adapt. MNK has VERY little they can do when a boss turns. I am flaberghasted that this seems to be such a hard concept for some people to understand.