with this mindset the future looks dim

[Timethiuas]

People clearly forget that there was the FFXI wiki back then with printed strategies for how to do fights with different party setups. Yes, we didn't have youtube, but we did have walkthroughs that you were expected to read ahead of time. Youtube didn't suddenly change things. Prior research was still expected.

I played FFXI from April 2004 until September 2008 and never once was I expected to research a dungeon or a fight. I was in some of the highest endgame LS's on Pandemonium and people worked together.

I can definitely understand what the OP is saying. This community is so bad that I was in Titan EX last week. There were obviously new people that and when someone asked who was new, no one spoke up. I told them I had beaten the heart phase but never completely beaten Titan. That person tried to mark places and give people some help. But I think people are so scared of being harrassed that no one spoke up. So after 3 wipes people started leaving. The poor guy that was trying to help appologized to me for being a dick. I told him he was just giving good advice. It wasn't his fault.

[F3rd1nand]

Ok, I believe a few points are crucial here:

Duty Finder is there to queue you with randoms in case you don't have the patience to create you own group in Party Finder due to either lack of patience or few players interested at that Primal/Dungeon/Raid at the time. So whoever uses it at the point they reach 50 is well aware of how there's a high chance to meet new players at said event and shouldn't, in any way, expect the newcomers to perform like said experienced players does. Be more open minded.

This is a online game, you're supposed to interact with others and enjoy the game content mostly in group (obviously), be it wiping or winning big time. Youtube guides or from any other source, could be required only through Party Finder.

EVERYONE in this game is paying to acess it and no one should cut their way of having fun because other's time is so "precious" to themselves. As I said previously, you're supposed to have fun by interacting with others by trying to archieve the common goal at that time, if you're so worried about the "time" issue, why even use DF? Make your own premade group with either FC, friends or Party Finder.

The argument of "other people times being < than the new player that haven't watched" in said new player's view, implies that they are egoistical? (That's what I understood). The said experienced people chose by their own will to DF it knowing the risk, whatever the case was. So imo, they're the ones being egoistical.

Now about the "asking how it works or what to do", what's the biggie? You can explain or not, do it and try to guide them and you may even earn some commendations at the end (if you care about these), do not and deal with any possible messy situations on the way.

And into courtesy, I believe that applies into being friendlier, people greeting you and you greet back. Newcomers take the initiative to tell they're new and don't know how to properly do it so others can know and maybe, the experienced could give some tips, maybe guide them through, etc (so what if that can happen multiple times? take the chance to become a more tolerant and patient person, if you're having a bad day just don't play in such kind of activity). That's what I see as gaming courtesy, not expecting them to watch something in advance, killing their fun of "finding out". For many it's not the same impact watching someone else doing it.

Ppl need some of dat Sayan pride. :P

[Garlyle]

I played FFXI from April 2004 until September 2008 and never once was I expected to research a dungeon or a fight. I was in some of the highest endgame LS's on Pandemonium and people worked together.

That's just it.

You weren't jumping into the highest level content with random players. You were jumping into a party with full expectation among all members that you may very well not succeed, but you'd figure it out and learn it together.

You can still get that. That's what Free Companies, Linkshells, and hell, even Party Finder are for.

Duty Finder is a fundamentally different experience, and while people should be helpful there, people also need to understand that, fundamentally, you all want to get through the content and should have done at least a little diligence towards succeeding, whether simply not playing like a moron in Sastasha or being aware of the crazy you're going to face when you walk into Titan EX.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

Fair enough, I can understand that.

As another note, what I do, and I've actually seen others do for learning runs: break it down phase by phase and practice that way. As in, explain Phase 1, how we handle it, try to clear it. If we get through that phase, explain the next, but only if we get to that point. This helps with "chunking" the information because the motions for getting through the previous phase will be fresh in everyone's minds. So you get progressively better at memorizing what's going to happen and when. This requires the leader to have the information beforehand, so yes, I myself look up information beforehand for these kinds of things, but it lightens the load on others.

[xenosuke1]

Accidents aren't accidents when its cause by being ill prepared.

again...

and accidents happen none the less ill prepared or not, like i have stated go over the battle strategy ask questions answer questions, if you feel you shouldnt well thts your fault is something goes wrong. if you feel they should go watch a ton of videos and be as experienced as u are, well u prolly shouldnt pug cause your gunna run into ppl like that, everyone one deserves a helpin hand but sadly it seem everyone is not wiling to give one

[Amberion]

I played FFXI from April 2004 until September 2008 and never once was I expected to research a dungeon or a fight. I was in some of the highest endgame LS's on Pandemonium and people worked together.

How many of those fights did you do with complete strangers?

As for researching things, did you ever ask for help with AF fights, BCNM or CoP/Zilart missions? If you asked for help, you where expected to know where and how things worked in it.

[Timethiuas]

That's just it.

You weren't jumping into the highest level content with random players. You were jumping into a party with full expectation among all members that you may very well not succeed, but you'd figure it out and learn it together.

You can still get that. That's what Free Companies, Linkshells, and hell, even Party Finder are for.

Duty Finder is a fundamentally different experience, and while people should be helpful there, people also need to understand that, fundamentally, you all want to get through the content and should have done at least a little diligence towards succeeding, whether simply not playing like a moron in Sastasha or being aware of the crazy you're going to face when you walk into Titan EX.

I agree, except that when I joined most of them, they were already established. Kupo was one of, if not the top LS on Pandemonium by the time I was able to join. Caffeine was as well, and Snow was already off the ground. I came in and they showed me the ropes. I didnt' join and have them expect me to have read and memorized every fight.

Same with my Dynamis LS. While we were 2nd or 3rd to beat Dynamis Lord, they were well on their way when I joined and had no problem explaining what came next.

[Timethiuas]

How many of those fights did you do with complete strangers?

As for researching things, did you ever ask for help with AF fights, BCNM or CoP/Zilart missions? If you asked for help, you where expected to know where and how things worked in it.

That is what I am trying to say, I NEVER researched. It was never required. And yes, I asked for help, and we either figured it out, or got lucky and someone had beaten it and helped with strategy.

Additionally, since everything was server specific, people's names got around. I was known for helping almost anyone who needed help. If I had done it before I had no problem helping others. So strangers didn't stay strange very long.

[Garlyle]

I agree, except that when I joined most of them, they were already established. Kupo was one of, if not the top LS on Pandemonium by the time I was able to join. Caffeine was as well, and Snow was already off the ground. I came in and they showed me the ropes. I didnt' join and have them expect me to have read and memorized every fight.

Again, there's a difference between "I joined these people, we chatted, and when it came time to do this stuff they helped me fully knowing I didn't know yet" and "I joined a party of 7 random people all ready to kick ass and clear, but didn't feel like finding out what I was getting myself into".

The experience of a preformed party, where an agreement and understanding pre-exists, and going into an experience with random players, is a drastically different one.

[Mysteltain]

You did not do end game fights with random people. You also didn't have random people teaching you those fights.

All that was handled in your guild/linkshell or whatever the game of choice was.

I appreciate the massive assumptions. It really shows just what kind of person you are, as well as how wrong you are. I've done the majority of end-game content with random people before ever running with my FC/guild, I've been taught everything from Garuda EX to T4 by random people, and will usually only run with FC/guild members when they set a day/evening aside for it. I return these favors (because that is what they are) by teaching other new people these fights.

Let's say it like this. Someone ends up 3 or 4 times a day in an instance where he would have to teach someone. That is 15-20min in one day. Now multiply that with 365. That is a lot of time that could have been saved if those people instead did that themself.

I also appreciate the massive over-exaggeration here. I'd be curious to know why someone played every day of the year doing the exact same thing every day--or something comparable to it--without changing their routine.