Do you think the devs intended multi-flare blm?

[Urielparadox]

I'll say this again. Only reason we Black Mages don't parse as high as them is because we have consistent downtime in our rotation. If we didn't have that downtime then our damage per minute wouldn't look as low as it is on parsers...

People compare final # not burst #, in equal gear and skill a physical dps(in a solo/low mob encounter) will always come out substantially higher. fights like turn 1,2,7, ifrit ex, garuda ex. There are some fights like levi, titan, turn 5, and turn 6 offer multi target moments that allow blm to gain some of its place back up a parse(ignoring mechanics that counteract this/make impractical). if a blm gets lucky in these fights and doesn't get targeted for stuff they have to dodge/move from the dps is decent enough that really wouldn't be too bad; But for each vines, liquid hell, ect..., that the blm has to dodge, there dps drops a lot more then a physical will, and these mechanics happen all through out the fight.

It's not an exploit to cast a spell the moment the regen tick occurs. It's part of the mechanics of the system used in a novel way, but not an exploit.

We already got nerfed because people did exactly this already once, SE stated that this is exploiting the mechanics of the game but it's their job to try and not make it possible. you are timing your cast so that you get the boost of umbral ice, even though you are technically in astral fire, that would be kinda the definition of an exploit, manipulating the game in order to receive 2 bonuses when the game only allows for 1 to be active at a time.

[JTribal]

If your BLM is AOEing spam flash until you're OOM or comfortable on threat, then build mana back with riot blade.

Agreed, I do this when farming Brayflox HM and very rarely lose hate, even in parties with two BLMs. The only times that I do I'm thinking it's more of the enemy not being close enough for flash, as opposed to Flare generating more hate than flash.

[Gormogon]

snip

The average rotation being

Fire 3 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Blizzard 3 > Thunder 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Blizzard 3 > Thunder 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 1

The portion I highlighted and underlined is our have downtime. That takes on average 6-8 seconds off our DPS. Per minute it doesn't look pretty since 14 seconds is a lot of time if we compare it to 60 seconds.

As per moving mechanics. You can move as your cast reaches the last .2 seconds. You can also target someone across the room and use Aetherial Manipulation and continue casting.

Regardless whatever our buff, which I ain't turning down, wont matter to those expecting the buff to bring BLM's to the #1 spot on parsers.

[JTribal]

This paladin I do 5 min bray speed runs with all the time has a nice philosophy, when in doubt flash. The mobs are alive for only seconds when you have two black mages doing trip flares.. don't really know what the issue is. You have all the tools you need to hold hate, so why not use them?

Are your Bray speedruns really only five minutes long?

[Tiggy]

We already got nerfed because people did exactly this already once, SE stated that this is exploiting the mechanics of the game but it's their job to try and not make it possible. you are timing your cast so that you get the boost of umbral ice, even though you are technically in astral fire, that would be kinda the definition of an exploit, manipulating the game in order to receive 2 bonuses when the game only allows for 1 to be active at a time.

It's not an exploit if you could do it by accident very easily. Which is something I've done many times playing BLM in the past as have many others. Unless they fundamentally change the way the class works with umbral fire and ice then this will continue to happen whether it is intentional or not. Players playing the game as it is presented are not exploiting it. Also, if you were technically in astral fire as you say then this wouldn't even happen. Obvious there is an aspect to the spell casting that doesn't apply astral fire until the very last moment of the spell taking effect which allows for a window where astral ice can still tick. We as players have no ability to change this fact. As long as it continues to work this way players will continue to do it. As I said, often by accident. Calling it an exploit would suggest that all the players who see this by accident are now worthy of a ban. They are not.

[NyneAlexander]

The average rotation being

Fire 3 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Blizzard 3 > Thunder 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Fire 1 > Blizzard 3 > Thunder 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 1

The portion I highlighted and underlined is our have downtime. That takes on average 6-8 seconds off our DPS. Per minute it doesn't look pretty since 14 seconds is a lot of time if we compare it to 60 seconds.

Shadowzanon broke down the thunder cast "if this then cast this" pretty well in the DPS forums. Gonna quote:

If you need to cast thunder 1 instead you do so. There is no huge dps increase from using thunder 2 over1 just more convinience. Due to the fact we do have to move you just make sure you have enough mana to do the following.
If 398+ mana, Bliz 3, then thunder 2. (or just 400+ if you cannot compute fast enough
If 291 to 397 mana, Bliz 3, thunder 1. (300 to 400 to be safe)
if 290 mana to 185 mana, Bliz 3, bliz one then thunder 2. (290 to 190 to be safe)
if less than 184 mana, use any ether or take your chances on casting bliz3 waiting for mana to tick which is what you want to avoid then cast thunder 2, best save ethers if you ever bump this low.
Adapting to what you got > striving to get 251 mana and losing potential dps for convenience. You are better just getting a phantasia and going dunefolk lalafell if 251 is your goal then no gear will hold you back in groups with a scholar but that should not be something you should do. Point is we can be whatever and still preform our dps to the best of our skill. we cannot just sit back and follow our rotation to the core because if you do, you are potentially crippling your dps.

You can also sub in Bliz III, swiftcast, Thun III, Fire III and be right on timing wise to fill your mp and get back into the Fire 1 spam. But if you are hard casting T3 during the downtime, you are losing DPS regardless of how you slice it.

[Kenji1134]

Here's a simple test for you guys to do.
Take a (roughly equally geared) BLM, SMN, and BRD. Have the BRD play Foe's as available, and parse for 6 minutes, enough time to use Raging Strikes 3 times, plus all other CD's 2+ times.
Then take a DRG, MNK, and BRD, have the BRD play Paeon, and parse for 6 minutes, which is made possible by the bard.
Finally, take your BRD and DRG, have the DRG maintain Disembowel, and have the BRD parse for 6 minutes.

So all in all, this will take 20-25 minutes.

These will be the maximum ST dps values for our dps classes over a idealized and prolonged period.
Realistically, DRG and MNK wont go past 3-4 minutes without a break. And BLM/SMN wont get nearly as much uptime on Foe's due to healer's needs.

So if BLM is pretty much dead last on this test, which I am pretty sure it will be... though the BRD wont be too much higher, then the class needs a buff. The dps POTENTIAL of each class needs to be at least somewhat similar.

I have no issue with melee dps being ~10-15% better on a dummy style fight than ranged dps. I dont really have an issue with SMN being at about the same level as BLM, provided BLM got something to address the movement dps loss to bring that aspect of the class up to SMN's level.

I do think that in an idealized ST situation, BRD should do the least dps, since it the ONLY mechanics that remotely affect its dps are ones that force you to stop attacking, or force you to look away.

As for BLM's aoe advantage... Um, lets see how many fights involve mobs being grouped up for aoe?
T5 2 times, initial adds with no major mechanics, and allowing the melees to focus on "the big snake" during the snake phase.
T4... which we now farm like nobody's business, could probably get it done with 4 MNK's now... Im sure someone already has done an "all melee" T4 for kicks.

And... though I might be wrong... I think thats it.
There's not a whole lot that plays towards BLM strengths. There are a number of fights that DO have multiple mobs at a distance, which is great for SMN and BRD though.

Sadly encounter design is not something that we can control. There is a separate group that makes the fights, and puts in various mechanics that hinder melee, or ranged, or just casters. The most glaring issue with BLM is that we have the fewest ways to handle the mechanics that are aimed at hindering us, which is the first thing that needs to be addressed... followed by BLM's place in the dps hierarchy.

PS:
I am also aware that MNK can be severally shafted by mechanics that would force you to disconnect for more than 6 seconds, as it may, depending on where the MNK is in their rotation, not be enough time to reapply GL.
Fortunately, there are rather few of these mechanics, and they tend to occur at sufficiently long intervals such that every other such long disconnect can be rectified using Perfect Balance.

[NyneAlexander]

Here's a simple test for you guys to do.
Take a BLM, SMN, and BRD. Have the BRD play Foe's as available, and parse for 6 minutes, enough time to use Raging Strikes 3 times.
Then take a DRG, MNK, and BRD, have the BRD play Paeon, and parse for 6 minutes, which is made possible by the bard.
Finally, take your BRD and DRG, have the DRG maintain Disembowel, and have the BRD parse for 6 minutes.

So all in all, this will take 20-25 minutes.

These will be the maximum ST dps values for our dps classes over a idealized and prolonged period.
Realistically, DRG and MNK wont go past 3-4 minutes without a break. And BLM/SMN wont get nearly as much uptime on Foe's due to healer's needs.

I don't think that 6 minutes is a realistic time frame for a couple reasons:

1.) the majority of endgame fights where dps will make or break it are almost twice as long, if not longer and
2.) the longer the fight, the larger the gap between top and bottom dps.

[Gormogon]

But if you are hard casting T3 during the downtime, you are losing DPS regardless of how you slice it.

There's a reason why I said average rotation.

And please keep that nonsense over there. I mentioned downtime and I explained it. Blizzard 3 > whatever the hell you want to do here > fire 3 is your downtime on DPS. If you can't understand that then please say you don't understand it or aren't willing to instead.

[Kenji1134]

I don't think that 6 minutes is a realistic time frame for a couple reasons:

1.) the majority of endgame fights where dps will make or break it are almost twice as long, if not longer and
2.) the longer the fight, the larger the gap between top and bottom dps.

I say 6 minutes for a couple simple reasons.

1. Its a nice number for 2 and 3 minute CD's, so the next decent timeframe would be 9, and the next ideal timeframe would be 12 minutes.
2. Its true that most of the important fights now take closer to 10-14 minutes... But then the issue becomes constructing a situation to sustain MNK, DRG, and BRD for the entire 12 minute parse WITHOUT breaks, which these long fights tend to have.
3. And then the other fun part, finding enough "equally" geared and skilled... highly skilled... people for this test, AND getting them to go at it for 12 minutes, without messing up or going braindead. =)

That said, this kind of test is really for 2 types of people. Theorycrafters, and the Combat QA/Dev team. We're the former, so if you can find the people to do it, all on the same server, same group, same data collection methods and cross-checking the data... By all means go to town.

But really, this "should" be SE's job, not ours.

PS.
I am having flashbacks to RIFT, where I was a Warrior main, and the entire theorycrafter community did spec and rotation checking for the warrior dev... Then he'd buff or nerf... mostly nerf... each spec and subclass until there weren't any outliers. Not "balance", there were a lot of specs that simply sucked. But of the small handful of builds that worked, they were all "fairly" balanced, mostly thanks to us, the players.