Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

[Classikal]

You are implying that there isn't a problem. There is. There is a huge problem, and if a fully geared guy is *almost* loosing threat in his parties when level synced - how well do you think it's going for those who AREN'T overgeared and AREN'T experienced as he is? I'll tell you: It's not pretty.

Comparing statistics between and full i90 player level-synced to the max level of the dungeon and an un-synced player is not really wise. I've leveled a lot of jobs, and as I have all the crafts at 50, I kept my self fully geared in HQ craftables as much as I could. I've also done many low level roulette for mythology as a change of pace from the Brayflox grind as well. An i90 synced character actually has less stats than a fully geared player un-synced player for that same level. Not by too much, but definitely a noticeable amount.

I have both WAR and PLD at 50, and the only time i ever had trouble holding hate was in Haukke Manor on WAR just before I learned Defiance, but that was when I was still fresh to tanking and freaked a little bit and didn't realize just how important keeping the rotation order was. Even if it's just a 2-GCD rotation, stay in form, Fast Blade/Heavy Swing are just as important as Savage Blade/Skull Sunder. The combo bonus is imperative to tanking well.

[Coth_X]

Go back and read the first post please.

If i really wanted to make a suggestion that made more sense to mr coth I'd probably ask them to:

But Coth wont stand for a simple swap in Shield Oath to make the job more enjoyable for what reason is beyond me, so we'll see how he reacts to this list i guess..

Perhaps you should go back and read your original post, the original post was not an attempt at opening up discussion on flash or pld rotations, it was a request to make shield oath occur 4 dungeons worth of levels sooner.

Also, I really don't have to keep beating a dead horse, but hey why not one more time, your request only affects 4 dungeons in the entire game, and they are pre50 dungeons. Also, not to mention the whole if you're leveling GLD you'll have to do Haukke manor for a couple of levels without PLD even unlocked.

You can request this all you want, but you're still going to need solid tanking skills in the early dungeons.

I am in absolute agreement on defiance/oaths not being lost on death though.

The basic reason is that it's not really a problem so why bother fixing it? I've yet to meet anyone that thinks that GLD and PLD have insufficient enmity generation tools at any point except for those people that think that enmity should be a complete and utter joke at all times. Flash works just fine and ShO isn't even really needed until your late-40s. The only reason that anyone complains about not getting Shield Oath at 30 is because WARs get Defiance at 30 (and the reason that WARs get it at 30 is that *every single one* of their other job abilities depends upon it). If WARs got Defiance at 40, you can be damned sure no one would be complaining.

Quoting this part of kitru's post cause I wanted to say WARs would be complaining cause they'd be doing 10 levels worth of dungeons and not be able to use inner beast or unchained

[Daniolaut]

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If you two cant realize that there is a shortage of tanks, and that Paladin is deemed boring by the community at large then neither of you must ever play the game.

I sign in and see 90% of the time (if not more) that in party finder, the Levi X parties have the Warrior spot long filled and the paladin spot not being filled..

I'm tired of repeating myself to you two. I hear of people complaining that there are so many bad tanks, and yet i dont have issues but find myself not enjoying paladin at low level. I made a simple suggestion and you didnt like it. Thats your choice but if you actually think i'm a bad tank cause i tried making a suggestion to help the community and attempt to make Paladin more appealing youre .. out of your mind.

Kitru in your super long post you proved nothing. Sure maybe people suggested things I already suggested, but i dont spend nearly what.. not even 18% of the time on the forums as much as you do. Mostly because I'm actually playing the game. So again if you dont realize there is a shortage of paladins specifically maybe you should turn on the game and see for yourself.

Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

[Ooshima]

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Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

Just saying, my primary alternate is a PLD and now I have leveled and geared my WAR with an allagan battle axe and I have to say.. man.. mass pulls like 1st pull in brayflox HM, Infurate-Unchained, Berserk-Bloodbath-IR and spam overpower for 200 dmg per hit on 10 mobs or so, that's holy shiat man!

[Kitru]

So again if you dont realize there is a shortage of paladins specifically maybe you should turn on the game and see for yourself.

I actually spend plenty of time in game (at least 2-3 hours/night), and I've never seen a shortage of PLDs compared to WARs. More often than not I'm seeing double PLD than double WAR because there's a helluva lot more content that requires a PLD than there is that requires a WAR.

I find it amusing that the go-to argument for people that have no actual knowledge of the underpinnings of the game is that they spend all of their time in game rather than on the forums. Maybe if you spent a little more time on the forums you'd actually know what you're talking about. Hell, maybe if you actually paid attention while you were playing you'd realize that much of the stuff that people learn on the forums is actually derived from stuff we learn *while we're playing the game*.

I sign in and see 90% of the time (if not more) that in party finder, the Levi X parties have the Warrior spot long filled and the paladin spot not being filled..

That's not because there aren't as many PLDs as WARs. That's because there is 1 spot that basically has to be filled by a PLD and 1 spot that can be filled by either a WAR or a PLD (yes, the MT spot is better suited for WAR, but it's not basically required like the OT spot).

Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

I never said WAR doesn't heal. I said that WAR self-heals are a minute portion of our total mitigation. You specifically said that "Warriors heal themselves. Paladins mitigate damage". When you're doing massive with Bloodbath, yes, you'll see some pretty green numbers but the self healing you're getting out of it is laughable compared to the amount of damage you're taking *because you're being beat on by 8+ enemies*. The reason that you're surviving those massive pulls isn't your self heals; it's the fact that you're reducing your damage taken via CDs and increasing the heals you receive from your healer via Defiance. The chances of your self-heals actually making a difference are virtually nonexistent.

After you get hit in the face by Death Sentence, see how big of a difference your self-heals are going to make to your survival (and that actually exaggerates their value given than self-heals are unaffected by healing debuffs). Most of the time, your self-heals are just going to end up being overheal. For most of the time that they're *not* just overheal, they're just a small increase to healer efficiency because you're letting them get away with a Cure instead of a Cure II.

WARs have self heals. That does not mean that they are the self-healing tanks whereas PLDs are the mitigation tanks. WAR self-heals are a small portion of our total mitigation, a vast majority of which is provided by traditional mitigation sources such as DR, defense, and parry. WAR self heals only account for the minute disparity between Defiance and Shield Oath and, in any scenario where you're actually taking appreciable damage (which, yes, does include AoE pulls), your self-heals aren't going to make any significant difference whatsoever.

I find it quite amusing that you seem to think that I don't know how to generate self heals on a WAR, especially since you're just pointing out laughably obvious stuff as if it were somehow a secret strategy (activate all of your damage buffs, turn on Bloodbath, and AoE! how could I possibly have missed that?). Are you next going to tell me that I should run around with Defiance on and use SE>BB>BB or SE>BB>BB>BB for enmity generation? Please, tell me all of these completely obvious things about playing a WAR that I could never have found out were it not for you.

[Senfei]

If you two cant realize that there is a shortage of tanks, etc etc etc

I'm not sure I'm getting you here. Your first post is about shield/sword oath and emnity generation at low levels, now you're talking about making Paladin more fun/accessible so that people will play it more. Except that shield oath and sword oath are passive buffs that are not "fun" in the slightest and will not improve/alter gameplay if they are switched. Perhaps you're saying that just holding emnity better in a few dungeons would make the class more fun, but myself and several others have come forward and noted that there is no real issue holding hate and tanking in those dungeons. Buffing invisible numbers will not make a class "fun" to new players, nor will making it easier because they will just frustrated even more at later levels when things are harder (and people have far less patience for bad tanks).

I understand that you may not feel like Paladin is a very dynamic or interesting class to play, I feel the same way. While I applaud your desire to make the class interesting, I just don't think your proposed change is relevant to the long term enjoyment of the class at all.

[Coth_X]

I understand that you may not feel like Paladin is a very dynamic or interesting class to play, I feel the same way. While I applaud your desire to make the class interesting, I just don't think your proposed change is relevant to the long term enjoyment of the class at all.

Quoting this because the bolded part completely validates my point. Since his change affects nothing past 40 and if someone doesn't want to pld tank at all, they prob gave up before getting to lvl 30 anyways.

[Souljacker]

Perhaps you're saying that just holding emnity better in a few dungeons would make the class more fun, but myself and several others have come forward and noted that there is no real issue holding hate and tanking in those dungeons.

Except that there is. Lower leveled, inexperienced tanks are having a LOT of trouble controlling mobs and it's because of the limited tools at low levels. The progression of tanking shouldn't be
Level 30: impossible to control against even a gearing up CNJ\LNC (which is my personal experience, and as someone who has played multiple mmos over the course of a decade I know how to manage my own threat)
Level 50: easy peasy lemon breezy not even worth mention

The content should be PROGRESSIVELY harder to tank\control mobs and introduce more and more mechanics until you are at end game and it is very challenging, but from what I am reading here and elsewhere (and seeing in my own dungeoning) it's definitely not like that. I don't know how long it's been since you have been in a low level dungeon or actually leveled a tank class (I'm guessing months, at least), but I am in that content and for every 5 dungeons I do at least 4 of them are a nightmare of monsters running everywhere.

Gladiators and Paladins have a much harder time hanging onto monsters at lower levels than Mauraders and Warriors do, and it *should* be addressed. Tanking already has the most pressure in the game - the tools shouldn't be so limited. Tanking multiple mobs is very different from the days when we chained mobs one at a time. This is something that should be looked at if SE is serious about inviting more people to try the tanking role.

[Senfei]

... Gladiators and Paladins have a much harder time hanging onto monsters at lower levels than Mauraders and Warriors do, and it *should* be addressed. Tanking already has the most pressure in the game - the tools shouldn't be so limited. Tanking multiple mobs is very different from the days when we chained mobs one at a time. This is something that should be looked at if SE is serious about inviting more people to try the tanking role.

Not months. Lodestone Hanoka Song on Coeurl, I made that character after returning from a month long break. She is a Warrior now, and I leveled from fresh lvl 1 status to 50 War as well as lvl 24 GLD at this point. This was all recently, within the last 3-4 weeks. I had none of the problems you are talking about leveling either tanking class. I have run my low level roulette consistantly as well.

Here is the issue, and you said it yourself. "Inexperienced tanks". Yes, the first 4 dungeons you will be inexperienced. Yes, there will be limited tools at low levels, because they are, well, low levels. You cannot/will not have 20 skills to mitagate damage and manage emnity at lvl 15 when you head in Satasha. I just seriously don't see what the massive issue with utilizing flash/overpower and maintaining aggro is, because even as a brand new player I didn't have these problems in these dungeons. Yes, it can be overwhelming, but the whole "It's impossible to hold aggro hermergerd the game is broken for tanks at low levels" is not helping your cause. You are pushing people away from tanking by saying these things, which are simply not true. If what you were saying was a universally true problem, then I and others who have commented in this thread would be having them too. We are not.

I'm not trying to be rude or imply that you are a bad tank and I am a good tank, just telling you the honest truth.

[Souljacker]

Not months. Lodestone Hanoka Song on Coeurl, I made that character after returning from a month long break. She is a Warrior now, and I leveled from fresh lvl 1 status to 50 War as well as lvl 24 GLD at this point. This was all recently, within the last 3-4 weeks. I had none of the problems you are talking about leveling either tanking class. I have run my low level roulette consistantly [sic] as well.

So, an experienced tank has leveled up warrior to 50 - the tank that everyone agrees is balanced - and gladiator to a modest level is arguing that nothing is wrong.

You cannot/will not have 20 skills to mitagate damage and manage emnity at lvl 15 when you head in Satasha.

You don't need 20 skills. You need 1-2 tools that actually work and are easy to use\understand how to use. This whole ramp-up thing of enmity attached to self-skillchains is really detrimental to the tank role as a whole, and the Flash\Skillchain back mp might have looked good on paper but in practice every single guide I have read has discouraged it because you can't afford not to use the enmity skillchain. It needs to be looked it. This topic comes up often enough in enough different places that there is a problem.

the whole "It's impossible to hold aggro hermergerd the game is broken for tanks at low levels" is not helping your cause.

I'm not a tank at the moment. I leveled to 50 drg exclusively through dungeons and main scenario, and I am leveling WHM exclusively through dungeons. This is coming from the perspective of someone who DOESN'T see things from only the tank side. As a healer and a dps in instances, I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of tanks. Experienced gladiators who are fast at marking tend to do better than the ones that don't, but I have yet to even SEE a warrior bother with marking and they very rarely if ever lose control of the pull. That's a big disconnect.

You are pushing people away from tanking by saying these things, which are simply not true.

No. The attitude that "but, but, it's ONLY 4 DUNGEONS" is what pushes people away. That indicates that you know there is an issue but don't care and think it shouldn't be bothered with because it's low level content. Personally I find that to be a terrible attitude.