End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

[DSX]

The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.



This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.

And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

let me simplify it further for both of you:

- pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available) (the larger the number of mechanics available in the pool the more complex these battles can be) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers can reuse this subset or another subset or mix and match from that larger pool. The players know for a fact that they could get more gameplay mechanics than what they got in these battles they cleared and the developers can actually deliver that because the base gameplay mechanics pool had much more to be used.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool.

-smaller pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available OR the whole thing if its a shallow pool) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers has less options in their pool left for the future. The players know for a fact that they could not get more gameplay mechanics than what they got because that's all there is in the base pool and the developers can only shuffle what they already done in term of gameplay mechanics for the new content because that is all what they have.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool and you will find that you mathematically have less options and thus shallower battles.

[Pandastirfry]

snip

okay, yet again... Your only example had the same or lesser pool to work with, you haven't given an example that statisfies your own critieria yet.

[DSX]

okay, yet again... Your only example had the same or lesser pool to work with, you haven't given an example that statisfies your own critieria yet.

first:
Are you claiming that FFXI had a smaller gameplay mechanics pool than FFXIV pool?

second:
whether you personally believe it exist or not is not my point or topic (it wasn't about FFXI complexity either go back and see that I mentioned a number of times that FFXI was not my point and i told YOU sepcifically about it too but you conveniently ignore that fact), it all was about FFXIV complexity and how much it can offer based on that base pool of gameplay mechanics the game has to offer.

[Pandastirfry]

first:
Are you claiming that FFXI had a smaller gameplay mechanics pool than FFXIV pool?

second:
whether you personally believe it exist or not is not my point or topic (it wasn't about FFXI complexity either), it all was about FFXIV complexity and how much it can offer based on that base pool of gameplay mechanics the game has to offer.

First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math", the only one given so far was a biased picture of "gameplay mechanics" straight from pokemon on XI and no gameplay mechanics mentioned for XIV on their respective BLMs. And then you just repeating yourself while constantly ignoring the dissenting opinion.

nit's not a case of not getting your "point", it's that your "point" so far is based in biased logic and a lack of supporting evidence.

[DSX]

First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math".

let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that

FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that


this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

[Pandastirfry]

let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that about as many if not more actually effective abilities than XI now you need to look a situational uses, effectiveness, and considering stats, realtive builds, thus creating the same class that fills different niches and optimal rotations
FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has now lets subtract the ones that were "useless" or not effective/MP cost out weighed utility, more does not neccessarily mean better
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that and in XI early on if you subbed anything other than WHM/RDM/SMN on BLM you were doing it wrong, so we can cut that down to 3, and factor in what those actually gave to you, WHM gave you "some healing" about the same cross classing Physick does, RDM some enspells which no one used and "some healing", and SMN, auto refresh and a bigger mp pool... so in the end about what XIV gives natively to BLM if not less in a practical sense.





this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out, and is still ignoring the actual gameplay mechanics... your "math" is just simple addition and subtraction... when what's called for is algebra.

[Mitsukai123]

This thread gave me cancer. Thanks, OP.

[ReplicaX]

Because then the Hardcores I know will just start complaining say that SE does nerf Atma RNG and makes it static style drops, they'll say "This is too easy, I should be the only one with Animus" or rather they'll say something else in different words but truly mean what I quoted.

If you break this thread down, all it comes to is yet another one of your Atma threads. To the point you want to label and segregate 2 player types for your own purpose.

[DSX]

okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out.

you claimed FFXI has LESS gameplay mechanics than FFXIV
then you asked me to show my math that adds up to FFXI has more which I did mathematically

but you are unwilling or rather unable to produce "math" that adds up to the contrary so you want conveniently to pick and choose what abilities to get included in the math and what abilities to not get included?
that is very convenient indeed

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game. Trying to argue based on your personal opinion which was actually used or what was useful to you is merely based on what you used and what the development team of FFXI used. The amount that they did not use does not change how deep their rabbit hole is mathematically, and that is why having it deep is good. Because then the developers can at any day get up and use whatever they didn't use before.

On the other hand if it was shallow then that it simply your limit of complexity and they have to resort to shuffling simpleton battle mechanics.


have a good day/nigh mam/sir.

[Pandastirfry]

snip

no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist. Potentially BLM in could be stated and geared to be a healer in XIV, but you'd be ineffective so no one does it...but the potential exists, there is a thread about tanky healers...it's a potential for WHM but it's not effectiveso....no one does it. This is the same math you're using...see why it doesn't add up.