End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

[Pandastirfry]

first:
Are you claiming that FFXI had a smaller gameplay mechanics pool than FFXIV pool?

second:
whether you personally believe it exist or not is not my point or topic (it wasn't about FFXI complexity either), it all was about FFXIV complexity and how much it can offer based on that base pool of gameplay mechanics the game has to offer.

First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math", the only one given so far was a biased picture of "gameplay mechanics" straight from pokemon on XI and no gameplay mechanics mentioned for XIV on their respective BLMs. And then you just repeating yourself while constantly ignoring the dissenting opinion.

nit's not a case of not getting your "point", it's that your "point" so far is based in biased logic and a lack of supporting evidence.

[DSX]

First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math".

let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that

FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that


this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

[Pandastirfry]

let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that about as many if not more actually effective abilities than XI now you need to look a situational uses, effectiveness, and considering stats, realtive builds, thus creating the same class that fills different niches and optimal rotations
FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has now lets subtract the ones that were "useless" or not effective/MP cost out weighed utility, more does not neccessarily mean better
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that and in XI early on if you subbed anything other than WHM/RDM/SMN on BLM you were doing it wrong, so we can cut that down to 3, and factor in what those actually gave to you, WHM gave you "some healing" about the same cross classing Physick does, RDM some enspells which no one used and "some healing", and SMN, auto refresh and a bigger mp pool... so in the end about what XIV gives natively to BLM if not less in a practical sense.





this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out, and is still ignoring the actual gameplay mechanics... your "math" is just simple addition and subtraction... when what's called for is algebra.

[DSX]

okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out.

you claimed FFXI has LESS gameplay mechanics than FFXIV
then you asked me to show my math that adds up to FFXI has more which I did mathematically

but you are unwilling or rather unable to produce "math" that adds up to the contrary so you want conveniently to pick and choose what abilities to get included in the math and what abilities to not get included?
that is very convenient indeed

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game. Trying to argue based on your personal opinion which was actually used or what was useful to you is merely based on what you used and what the development team of FFXI used. The amount that they did not use does not change how deep their rabbit hole is mathematically, and that is why having it deep is good. Because then the developers can at any day get up and use whatever they didn't use before.

On the other hand if it was shallow then that it simply your limit of complexity and they have to resort to shuffling simpleton battle mechanics.


have a good day/nigh mam/sir.

[Pandastirfry]

snip

no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist. Potentially BLM in could be stated and geared to be a healer in XIV, but you'd be ineffective so no one does it...but the potential exists, there is a thread about tanky healers...it's a potential for WHM but it's not effectiveso....no one does it. This is the same math you're using...see why it doesn't add up.

[DSX]

no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist.

I was talking about math from the get go, you can see it through out my posts and everyone can see it too.
You challenged my "math" and I provided proof that it is correct.
You claimed FFXIV has more as opposed to my math of the contrary but failed to provide the "math" because you can't produce it.
If math is not your strong point please refrain from arguing about it.

magnitude of complexity is important to set in games like MMORPG because you are simply setting the foundation for years (or perhaps decades) to come of continuous production of new content for this game. It is wise to make your rabbit hole as deep as possible because you never know when you will need it to create things that you never did before. Lacking depth will always haunt you for any long term project because you only have a small number of ways you can utilize a shallow pool of gameplay mechanics and you will end up just shuffling simpleton mechanics over and over for your "new" content. You are as good as the rabbit hole you made in terms of gameplay mechanics variety, that's a fact. (Mathematically correct )


Good day/night mam/sir

Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

That is true indeed. But that's the development team issue to resolve.

[Pandastirfry]

snip

again...your "math" discounts the actual mechanics in favor of just number values...

when taken as a whole XIV actually requires you to USE most if not all of your abilities, where as XI had you use maybe half of the bloated list they gave you on a shallow "Rock, Paper Scissors" system for its entire exisitence. Again you used basic arithmatic, when complex math is needed. if your "Potential Mechanics" are never used in 11+ years, then they effectively don't exist

[ReplicaX]

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game.

Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

[ReplicaX]

Because then the Hardcores I know will just start complaining say that SE does nerf Atma RNG and makes it static style drops, they'll say "This is too easy, I should be the only one with Animus" or rather they'll say something else in different words but truly mean what I quoted.

If you break this thread down, all it comes to is yet another one of your Atma threads. To the point you want to label and segregate 2 player types for your own purpose.