End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

[DSX]

Ah yes, "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the most hardcore game ever invented...

XI's BLM could boiled down in a similiarly biased way to...

"A wild PUGIL appears!"

"BLM casts LIGHTNING!...It was super effective!"

"wild Pugil faints."

While I found it quite amusing when I just started playing, it is indeed quite a stupid comparison.
Apart from the fact that both games carry the same name, are from the same company and have several similarities we're talking about two completely different games with completely different mechanics.

Now to shit on this comparison a little, for fun.
If we really were to boil down BLM usefulness in endgame between both games (bar in mind I have quit FFXI over 6 months ago so things may have changed):
FFXI: Stun! Oh no, who am I kidding? We have Scholars for that! Do you have another job?
FFXIV: You have one job soldier: Blow that shit to hell!

My point was not about specific games but how deep the rabbit hole can go in terms of gameplay mechanics compared to FFXIV. So that picture could have any other game on the left side with the same complexity as FFXI gameplay mechanics and my statement would be the same. If you don't have the necessary gameplay mechanics needed for a deep and high level challenge then you simply mathematically cannot do it and you are simply locked to shuffling simpleton fights.

let me repost what i said before yet again:

An easy skillset does not means you cannot play hardcore. See GW's PvP as a working example of the past.

Having a gameplay complexity that respects my intelligence is the cornerstone IMHO. without it you are forever locked in simpleton gameplay mechanics however you like to shuffle it, because it is mathematically impossible to have any high level challenges

Then, even if the idea to divide players in "pro" and "carebears" goes live, I am pretty sure a good number of "pro" goes to play in "carebear" server for the lolz to slap newbz.

Then, a number of regular will go to hardcore because their ego doesn't want them feel "inferior" to anyone.

Result: nothing changes.

This is understandable since it is typical human behavior so yes we will see it but I don't think it will be on a large scale.

But again even if they do separate servers those new servers are not "hardcore" because as I have stated:

http://i5.minus.com/ih4nqfmZTYDbY.jpg

as long as this picture is true this game is incapable of hardcore servers or content.

[Clavaat]

My point was not about specific games but how deep the rabbit hole can go in terms of gameplay mechanics compared to FFXIV.

A rabbithole no one jumped into. Ya, you had a lot of spells, but 90% of them you never touched because they would never land, weren't helpful, or weren't MP efficient. MB's were ok, but not that complex. The charts made it look much harder than it was. Just boiled down to waiting for other DD's doing their thing then hitting your 1 spell. Also, to be fair to FFXIV here, that picture fails to mention the MP upkeep mechanic (umbral Ice), enhanced ability procs, and other tricks you can do.

.......Also what does this have to do with the OP? This thread makes no sense at all...

[DSX]

A rabbithole no one jumped into. Ya, you had a lot of spells, but 90% of them you never touched because they would never land, weren't helpful, or weren't MP efficient. MB's were ok, but not that complex. The charts made it look much harder than it was. Just boiled down to waiting for other DD's doing their thing then hitting your 1 spell. Also, to be fair to FFXIV here, that picture fails to mention the MP upkeep mechanic (umbral Ice), enhanced ability procs, and other tricks you can do.

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

My point is the deeper your rabbit hole is the more variety of gameplay options are mathematically possible for the gameplay designers and the battle designers to implement in the game and the a wide spectrum from simple battles to a very high complex battles that challenge your mind before challenging your button pressing speed (and so some players also challenging their internet ping speed). FFXIV simple and shallow gameplay mechanics can only allow for simpleton battle mechanics that get shuffled from fight to fight.

.......Also what does this have to do with the OP? This thread makes no sense at all...

Well the OP advocating "hardcore servers" and what I'm saying is that this game is incapable mathematically of "hardcore" content and so incapable of "hardcore" servers.

[Pandastirfry]

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output,and status effects tied to many spells. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

[DSX]

the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

As I mentioned before the picture was an example and not about what games it featured in it specifically (maybe seeing FFXI hits a chord with you so you ignored that I said its not about what game was on the left). People tend to mention what what they like personally, and yes the FFXIV side does not mention MP upkeep but look at yourself, you failed to mention how having multiple tiers of the same spell for example furthers the complexity of spell usage in FFXI for example and there is many more example of ignored things on both sides of that picture. BUT again let me explain to you the part of my point you missed:

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as how complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

[Pandastirfry]

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as hoe complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

[DSX]

The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.



This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.

And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

let me simplify it further for both of you:

- pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available) (the larger the number of mechanics available in the pool the more complex these battles can be) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers can reuse this subset or another subset or mix and match from that larger pool. The players know for a fact that they could get more gameplay mechanics than what they got in these battles they cleared and the developers can actually deliver that because the base gameplay mechanics pool had much more to be used.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool.

-smaller pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available OR the whole thing if its a shallow pool) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers has less options in their pool left for the future. The players know for a fact that they could not get more gameplay mechanics than what they got because that's all there is in the base pool and the developers can only shuffle what they already done in term of gameplay mechanics for the new content because that is all what they have.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool and you will find that you mathematically have less options and thus shallower battles.

[Clavaat]

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.

Well the OP advocating "hardcore servers" and what I'm saying is that this game is incapable mathematically of "hardcore" content and so incapable of "hardcore" servers.

This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.