The True Nature of The Echo

[RolandDebreton]

The talk with Minfilia harkens me back to Elidibus talking to the others. He essentially says, "Don't you think its interesting, the have the same power we do? They could be like us. Isn't that fascinating? To which the other Ascians summarily say, "No!" Its an interesting discussion to rewatch knowing what we now know.

[DoctaruRavenbe]

Now that I have caught up to the story in 2.2 something in me is ticking here. I think I have an idea why the Sahagin was eaten by Leviathan. Yes his soul was free to reside in any body but his consciousness had also become an Aetheric Entity. What do primals eat? Now my guess this may be an additional power of the echo but at a higher level like everyone said but what if Elidibus just gave the Sahagin the Aetheric form only?

[Skyhound]

There is one little piece that everyone is over looking. That's Ifrit's dialogue when he finds out that the Player cannot be tempered. IIRC he states that player has already been "touched by another". This HIGHLY suggests that the Echo is in fact some form of tempering.

There really is very little to imply that the Player has free will. The entire sentiment of the Player's journey seems very primal-like to me. Every thing we do is to "spread the light of the Crystal". Sounds a lot like how Ifrit and Garuda wanted to spread their own influence.

[Empressia]

Primal tempering is categorized as being tempered as a slave, servant or a doll, problem is our toons looks more to be an agent for Hydaelyn

[Enkidoh]

As I've stated earlier in this thread, Ifrit clearly doesn't understand the Echo at all - all he knows is that certain people are immune to his influence, and that he can detect 'the taint' on their soul. Thus given his limited knowledge, he assumes it's because the player is already 'tempered'. Then he went and contradicted himself calling the player 'one of the godless blessed', which also fits in with how Lahabrea always referred to the player as well - that the Echo wasn't tempering, but an 'anomaly' that needed to be eliminated.

And as I mentioned earlier, tempering strips a person of their free will, making them nothing but a slave of the Primal who tempered them. The Echo on the other hand, simply grants those so gifted with certain abilities (which Tempered don't seem to possess). How that person uses their gift is entirely up to them.

There were plenty of examples in 1.0 especially where there plenty of Echo users who were mundane people - civilians, merchants and farmers. There were a few adventurers as well, naturally, but it was pretty clear the majority of members of the Path of the Twelve lacked martial skill - adventurers only made up a small portion of that. And as mentioned earlier there were examples of people using their power of the Echo for personal or monetary ends - things which very much go completely against the 'will' of the Crystal, all but showing that the Echo is not Tempering.

Yes, as adventurers with the Echo we're guided by the visions of the Mothercrystal, but how that person actually proceeds with that power and knowledge is entirely up to them (you have to admit though, the Crystal did plead a very compelling case - her destruction would kind of result in the end of the world after all. ).

[Melinia]

Do we know for certain that what the sahagin priest has is actually the Echo? Minfilia clearly thinks that it is, but is there any evidence beyond her belief? Or does she provide any supporting evidence? Is it possible that what the priest has is something else?


Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states. Despite the fact that we've got a fairly good idea of geographies and layouts of the region, and the fact that there's really no good "independent place that provides adventurers", all we know is that your character had a weird dream and then woke up in a carriage (or on a ship) on the way to your starting city (this applies to both 1.0 and ARR). Typically that's explained away as a "put your own imprint on the character" sort of thing. But is it possible that it's a bit more convoluted here?

[Orophin]

Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states.

In the grand scheme of things? No. Only the adventurers from 1.0 technically "existed" prior to the opening of ARR. It's my interpretation that you are "awakened" during the carriage ride if you are a new character, whereas if you see the opening cutscene from a 1.0 character perspective you're just kinda beamed back in and wander off to the nearest town with nobody (except Minfilia since she has the Echo which apparently shielded her from the brainwashing effects) having a clue who you are, even though you met many of these people five years ago.

I have so many things churning around in my head after seeing how the 2.2 story ended.

- Ascians clearly have a power that's like or is the Echo and are able to pass that knowledge onto others. The Sahagin priest is the most advanced case of the Echo the character has seen up until now. (until the realization that the Ascians have that same power)

- This was a particularly interesting read.

At the urgent behest of a party of twelve shadowy figures history remembers only as the Archons, the nations agree to consolidate their remaining resources to form the grand companies of Eorzea in an attempt to forestall the coming apocalypse."

I believe Thancred, Yda, Papalymo, etc were referred to as Archons in 1.0, but "shadowy figures" sounds very much like the Ascians, specifically the point of manipulating things behind the scenes. Which is it? Are "The Twelve" really the Ascians? The only depiction of one of The Twelve we've seen I think is Nophica, but I don't know if this was some idealized image someone drew up. For a lack of a better definition, it seems the populace of Eorzea is very superstitious towards things they don't understand, lumping things beyond their understanding with "Voidsent", so it wouldn't be a stretch if The Twelve and the Ascians are one and the same. Not that it's the same, but there's a lot of drawing from this chart from FFXII.

On a totally side note, I wonder what significance the Sanctum of the Twelve will hold. I wonder if it's going to be a gateway of sorts like Ro'maeve/Hall of the Gods was for Tu'lia in FFXI.

[Quintalian]

Guys ... this is creeping me out.

Relevant lore:

In an age of shadow some fifteen centuries past, a colossal flood consumed the realm, ushering in the Sixth Umbral Era. When salvation was thought beyond reach, a band of heroes known as the Twelve Archons stepped forward to banish the darkness. Tales of their bravery have been passed down through the ages, and the tradition of Hatching-tide now serves to preserve the memory of their selfless actions.

The festival was founded several years ago, before the realm fell to ruin in the wake of the Seventh Calamity. An eccentric Miqo'te named Jihli Aliapoh is said to have been visited in her dreams by the Twelve Archons of eld, descending from the heavens atop beautifully bedecked eggs. They spoke unto her a declaration of their return, and she now works tirelessly to see her dream someday turn to reality. Each year countless eggs are gathered and painted in an array of colors with splendid patterns. Though most serve merely as decorations about town, a select few chosen by Jihli and her Dreamers are reserved for Hatching Hour, a grand ceremony in which the chosen eggs are used to summon the Archons back to Eorzea.

And then there's this:

Summoning the Zodiark Esper in FFXII. Note especially what happens starting at 0:12.

Twelve Archons, "shadowy figures". Twelve Ascians, who we know prefer to work in the shadows. A summoning involving eggs. This can't be purely coincidence, right? Could the "Dreamers" be a few selected by the Ascians to receive some form of the Echo or Echo-like power, in order to manipulate them through these so-called prophetic dreams?

[Alleluia]

Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states. Despite the fact that we've got a fairly good idea of geographies and layouts of the region, and the fact that there's really no good "independent place that provides adventurers", all we know is that your character had a weird dream and then woke up in a carriage (or on a ship) on the way to your starting city (this applies to both 1.0 and ARR). Typically that's explained away as a "put your own imprint on the character" sort of thing. But is it possible that it's a bit more convoluted here?

I've had the same idea for a while, too. The vision intro really does make it feel like that moment you phase in to existence in the "dream", you're just coming into existence period.Also, the animation is the same as teleporting, which is odd for an event that is in theory taking place inside your head. Teleporting is movement through the lifestream, so maybe what we are seeing is our character being "born" by the Mother Crystal in that lifestream.

The same applies to 1.0 characters when they woke up on the ship/carriage way back when, even though we saw no cut scene then. In fact, the fact that instead of waking up, they port in to Eorzea reinforces even more that the "vision" in the start wasn't just in our heads, but an event that actually occurs in the lifestream. (Presumably that's where they were chilling the last 5 years.)

Personally, I love the theory. We can still headcanon that our character is from wherever b/c that's what the character thinks. If this theory is right, they won't actually have a past, but they would still *think* they do. Its kinda having our cake and eating it, too.

To bring it slightly more on topic: It would explain our special connection to the crystals of light if we were direct products of the lifestream. It can't be explained by the Echo alone since, if the Echo was all that was required, Minfilia or others could be Crystal Bearers, too. From what I understand, they aren't.

[Enkidoh]

I've had the same idea for a while, too. The vision intro really does make it feel like that moment you phase in to existence in the "dream", you're just coming into existence period.Also, the animation is the same as teleporting, which is odd for an event that is in theory taking place inside your head. Teleporting is movement through the lifestream, so maybe what we are seeing is our character being "born" by the Mother Crystal in that lifestream.

The same applies to 1.0 characters when they woke up on the ship/carriage way back when, even though we saw no cut scene then. In fact, the fact that instead of waking up, they port in to Eorzea reinforces even more that the "vision" in the start wasn't just in our heads, but an event that actually occurs in the lifestream. (Presumably that's where they were chilling the last 5 years.)

Personally, I love the theory. We can still headcanon that our character is from wherever b/c that's what the character thinks. If this theory is right, they won't actually have a past, but they would still *think* they do. Its kinda having our cake and eating it, too.

To bring it slightly more on topic: It would explain our special connection to the crystals of light if we were direct products of the lifestream. It can't be explained by the Echo alone since, if the Echo was all that was required, Minfilia or others could be Crystal Bearers, too. From what I understand, they aren't.

Nice theory, but it just doesn't hold weight I'm afraid - there are plenty of instances in the game, even at the start, that prove your character existed before you actually begin the game. For starters, during character creation you have to choose your character's birthday, which alone all but screams "your character was born, not just 'blinked' into existence by the Mothercrystal." Then on the carriage/ferry, one of the questions the merchant asks you is if that was your first time in that city.

And especially in Gridania, your character is frequently referred to as being a "foreigner", "newly come to Eorzea." The narrative doesn't go into detail about your character's origins because the development team wanted to leave that up to the player to come up with that, to write their own character's history and backstory (this is in contrast to RPGs by companies like Bioware where even though the player has freedom about how their character's appearance/race etc, their backstory is pre-made by the development team, making it very restrictive), which ironically is very much in keeping with role-playing's pen-and-paper roots. But I digress.