The True Nature of The Echo

[Melinia]

Do we know for certain that what the sahagin priest has is actually the Echo? Minfilia clearly thinks that it is, but is there any evidence beyond her belief? Or does she provide any supporting evidence? Is it possible that what the priest has is something else?


Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states. Despite the fact that we've got a fairly good idea of geographies and layouts of the region, and the fact that there's really no good "independent place that provides adventurers", all we know is that your character had a weird dream and then woke up in a carriage (or on a ship) on the way to your starting city (this applies to both 1.0 and ARR). Typically that's explained away as a "put your own imprint on the character" sort of thing. But is it possible that it's a bit more convoluted here?

[Orophin]

Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states.

In the grand scheme of things? No. Only the adventurers from 1.0 technically "existed" prior to the opening of ARR. It's my interpretation that you are "awakened" during the carriage ride if you are a new character, whereas if you see the opening cutscene from a 1.0 character perspective you're just kinda beamed back in and wander off to the nearest town with nobody (except Minfilia since she has the Echo which apparently shielded her from the brainwashing effects) having a clue who you are, even though you met many of these people five years ago.

I have so many things churning around in my head after seeing how the 2.2 story ended.

- Ascians clearly have a power that's like or is the Echo and are able to pass that knowledge onto others. The Sahagin priest is the most advanced case of the Echo the character has seen up until now. (until the realization that the Ascians have that same power)

- This was a particularly interesting read.

At the urgent behest of a party of twelve shadowy figures history remembers only as the Archons, the nations agree to consolidate their remaining resources to form the grand companies of Eorzea in an attempt to forestall the coming apocalypse."

I believe Thancred, Yda, Papalymo, etc were referred to as Archons in 1.0, but "shadowy figures" sounds very much like the Ascians, specifically the point of manipulating things behind the scenes. Which is it? Are "The Twelve" really the Ascians? The only depiction of one of The Twelve we've seen I think is Nophica, but I don't know if this was some idealized image someone drew up. For a lack of a better definition, it seems the populace of Eorzea is very superstitious towards things they don't understand, lumping things beyond their understanding with "Voidsent", so it wouldn't be a stretch if The Twelve and the Ascians are one and the same. Not that it's the same, but there's a lot of drawing from this chart from FFXII.

On a totally side note, I wonder what significance the Sanctum of the Twelve will hold. I wonder if it's going to be a gateway of sorts like Ro'maeve/Hall of the Gods was for Tu'lia in FFXI.

[Alleluia]

Also, something I occasionally wonder about is whether our character even existed within the setting prior to his or her trip to one of the three city states. Despite the fact that we've got a fairly good idea of geographies and layouts of the region, and the fact that there's really no good "independent place that provides adventurers", all we know is that your character had a weird dream and then woke up in a carriage (or on a ship) on the way to your starting city (this applies to both 1.0 and ARR). Typically that's explained away as a "put your own imprint on the character" sort of thing. But is it possible that it's a bit more convoluted here?

I've had the same idea for a while, too. The vision intro really does make it feel like that moment you phase in to existence in the "dream", you're just coming into existence period.Also, the animation is the same as teleporting, which is odd for an event that is in theory taking place inside your head. Teleporting is movement through the lifestream, so maybe what we are seeing is our character being "born" by the Mother Crystal in that lifestream.

The same applies to 1.0 characters when they woke up on the ship/carriage way back when, even though we saw no cut scene then. In fact, the fact that instead of waking up, they port in to Eorzea reinforces even more that the "vision" in the start wasn't just in our heads, but an event that actually occurs in the lifestream. (Presumably that's where they were chilling the last 5 years.)

Personally, I love the theory. We can still headcanon that our character is from wherever b/c that's what the character thinks. If this theory is right, they won't actually have a past, but they would still *think* they do. Its kinda having our cake and eating it, too.

To bring it slightly more on topic: It would explain our special connection to the crystals of light if we were direct products of the lifestream. It can't be explained by the Echo alone since, if the Echo was all that was required, Minfilia or others could be Crystal Bearers, too. From what I understand, they aren't.

[Enkidoh]

I've had the same idea for a while, too. The vision intro really does make it feel like that moment you phase in to existence in the "dream", you're just coming into existence period.Also, the animation is the same as teleporting, which is odd for an event that is in theory taking place inside your head. Teleporting is movement through the lifestream, so maybe what we are seeing is our character being "born" by the Mother Crystal in that lifestream.

The same applies to 1.0 characters when they woke up on the ship/carriage way back when, even though we saw no cut scene then. In fact, the fact that instead of waking up, they port in to Eorzea reinforces even more that the "vision" in the start wasn't just in our heads, but an event that actually occurs in the lifestream. (Presumably that's where they were chilling the last 5 years.)

Personally, I love the theory. We can still headcanon that our character is from wherever b/c that's what the character thinks. If this theory is right, they won't actually have a past, but they would still *think* they do. Its kinda having our cake and eating it, too.

To bring it slightly more on topic: It would explain our special connection to the crystals of light if we were direct products of the lifestream. It can't be explained by the Echo alone since, if the Echo was all that was required, Minfilia or others could be Crystal Bearers, too. From what I understand, they aren't.

Nice theory, but it just doesn't hold weight I'm afraid - there are plenty of instances in the game, even at the start, that prove your character existed before you actually begin the game. For starters, during character creation you have to choose your character's birthday, which alone all but screams "your character was born, not just 'blinked' into existence by the Mothercrystal." Then on the carriage/ferry, one of the questions the merchant asks you is if that was your first time in that city.

And especially in Gridania, your character is frequently referred to as being a "foreigner", "newly come to Eorzea." The narrative doesn't go into detail about your character's origins because the development team wanted to leave that up to the player to come up with that, to write their own character's history and backstory (this is in contrast to RPGs by companies like Bioware where even though the player has freedom about how their character's appearance/race etc, their backstory is pre-made by the development team, making it very restrictive), which ironically is very much in keeping with role-playing's pen-and-paper roots. But I digress.

[Mjollnir]

Nice theory, but it just doesn't hold weight I'm afraid - there are plenty of instances in the game, even at the start, that prove your character existed before you actually begin the game.

I respectfully disagree. This is an old theory of mine from 1.0 and I think it still holds weight in ARR, especially with the new Mothercrystal opening scene.

For starters, during character creation you have to choose your character's birthday, which alone all but screams "your character was born, not just 'blinked' into existence by the Mothercrystal."

Conversely, you get to choose the day and month of your arrival, but not the year (ie your age). If it supports anything, it's that you popped into existence at that moment rather than you were born.

Then on the carriage/ferry, one of the questions the merchant asks you is if that was your first time in that city.

That doesn't really impact either way. The merchant doesn't know you, so it's a reasonable question to ask.

And especially in Gridania, your character is frequently referred to as being a "foreigner", "newly come to Eorzea." The narrative doesn't go into detail about your character's origins because the development team wanted to leave that up to the player to come up with that, to write their own character's history and backstory (this is in contrast to RPGs by companies like Bioware where even though the player has freedom about how their character's appearance/race etc, their backstory is pre-made by the development team, making it very restrictive), which ironically is very much in keeping with role-playing's pen-and-paper roots. But I digress.

That is your assumption, and I do concur that it's an assumption which is heavily inferred by the start of many RPGs on and off computer since the genre's inception. However, S-E's lore and plot team are (or at least *were*) NEFARIOUS and it wouldn't be the first time a Final Fantasy has done exactly this with the protagonist's back-story (looking at you VII, VIII and X).

Having said that, you'd have to have popped into existence right there on that coach for ARR, and that would have seemed really weird to the other passengers! Oh wait, isn't that Alphinaud and Alisaie Leveilleur. And that old guy Maat? I mean er yeah him and his two brothers - just innocent merchants, right? That all happen to be there to congratulate us on our victory over Ultima.

[Enkidoh]

-snip-

Be it as it seems a little too coincidental that both the merchant and Alphinaud and Alisaie just happen to be on the same carriage/ferry as the player as they arrive in Eorzea, it's not proof that the player has just magically materialized by the will of the Crystal. This should be obvious, but wouldn't the merchant and the Leveilleur siblings have, I don't know, actually noticed that? Instead the merchant wakes you up and says you were sweating and moaning in your sleep - pretty much showing that they'd been there all along.

And as for when the merchant asks you about whether that was your first time in the city or not, it's up to the player to decide whatever choice you ask (because ultimately either lead to the same result - he basically describes the city-state you're heading to, saying "no', that you've been there before, he says "Okay, then let this journeyed itinerant fill you in on a few changes that have happened since your last visit."

Even the opening movie says at the end "Amidst this great change, an adventurer, arrives in Eorzea, one whose tale is yet unwritten." There is nothing that states "Oh, they didn't just arrive, they were literally born right this minute by the Mothercrystal." I'm going to apply Occam's Razor here and just think that because the narrative assumes that the player understands that the adventurer is a foreigner arriving on a carriage to begin life as an adventurer - if they've really born right that moment by the Mothercrystal, don't you think it's odd that they start life pretending to be a foreigner arriving on a carriage in the first place? Why not just make them appear in the outskirts of the city they start in, or something? It just doesn't seem that logical to me.

Simply put, we're not new creations of the Mothercrystal, we're just average men and women born and raised elsewhere on Hydaelyn who have come to Eorzea attracted by the life of adventuring, and whom while still on the road to our new homes, is then chosen by the Mothercrystal as a recipient of the Echo, to hopefully act as Her champion against the Ascians and the Primals. That's pretty much what the story tells us.

I guess I've just been reading Scott McCloud's excellent tome Understanding Comics too much to see what he refers to as 'closure', that is, the ability to perceive and understand an entire idea from purely fragmented information based on past experiences and expectations, and thus regard the player's character in the opening as nothing more than what it appears to be - a foreign born new adventurer arriving in Eorzea, and not an obtuse and abstract concept as trying to explain a purely gameplay mechanic that is character creation in narrative terms.

[Orophin]

stuff

I don't think anyone is contending that your character just suddenly materialized. Simply that your character is "awakened" by Hydaelyn in the opening cutscene, similarly to how your character is granted the Echo by the star shower in 1.0's opening cutscene.

[aisthesis]

This should be obvious, but wouldn't the merchant and the Leveilleur siblings have, I don't know, actually noticed that?

If memories of the existence of the Warriors of Light can be erased by whoever it was that erased them, couldn't the memories of the embarking and travel be just as easily be implanted on the Leveilleur siblings and the merchant? I think Mjollnir's theory is actually pretty strong, and what I understood from their post is that maybe the Leveilleurs actually knew a new being was going to be beamed at some place and were there with their helpers, the merchant and his brothers to meet this new being and see them to safety. The questions, the nebulous backstory was actually to make the new being more comfortable about their existence rather than hit them with a "hey, you were just born! here's what you need to know and your weapon, go kill iffy, m'kay!"