To the Dev Team. - Future Job System -

[Nuru]

If you think of Classes as just Weapons (Which they are.), then there wouldn't be so much confusion. Being a Paladin in FFXIV would be the same as being a Paladin in FFXI. Both have sword+shield equipped. Both have Sword Weapon Skills. Both play the same role in party.

Again, over and over again, oh, and once more..

Classes are Weapons.

Oh, and i may have forgot to mention, but..

Classes are Weapons.

Does everyone understand this at all? imo The Armory System is what sets this game apart form other MMORPGs, and is not a bad idea at all. The concept that everyone can't seem to grasp is that Pugilist isn't the Job, its the Class. Better to see this as just a Hand-to-hand weapon character without a Job equipped. That's what FFXIV is right now. Its FFXI without Jobs. Equip any weapon you want along with weapon skills.

With the future Job System, its going to make for a stronger sense of accomplishment if you were to quest for abilities and make those quests hard to do.

Anyways, yeah. Classes are Weapons.

[YUGON]

To Physic

So basically, you want an improvement of the currently Armoury System to define each class role, instead of making new jobs or advanced Classes, right??

[Kiara]

Relevelling jobs makes little sense, because they are simply extensions of the current classes in various directions. A paladin will use many of the same skills as a Gladiator, with a few more gained via quests.

The reason they won't seperate classes from jobs (not only because of the above reason, that they're pretty much the same thing) is because they want everyone to be able to solo in the way they want to. This means that a conjurer will be able to solo relatively easily up to the max rank at the time, and then also switch to White mage when the situation calls for it but not have to suffer the shitty levelling process as a WHM who has little no offensive capability.

I don't get why people want to level it all over again. The difference between a Gladiator and a paladin won't be enough to warrant the need to relevel it in order to be 'skilled' at it. MMOs aren't that hard.

Classes meet the needs of people wanting to be casual and generally mould a class how they want to. Jobs meet the needs of people wanting classic job roles, and to feel like they're fulfilling a classic need.

I don't know why people are so hung up on it, for a FFXI reference: Imagine if a Scholar had to level up to max on the basic class, then the Dark Arts form and Light arts form. It's the same sort of situation, just extensions of a basic form.

Hi YUGON,

I applaud you for trying to aggregate everyone's thoughts on the Job System into 1 Thread. I'm not sure how accurate it'll be, but at least you're trying.

I think one sentiment needs to be clarified in the request where people are asking for "Jobs to start at Level 1," it's what Sephr and physic have brought up in a few threads (and what I agree on):

* Jobs should start at Level 1 only if it was an entirely, completely NEW "Job" with ~40 - 50 NEW Skills and Weaponskills.

Matsui-san and Yoshida-san have stated already that the "Jobs" we're getting are roles, a play style, *not* an entirely "New Job (with its own 40 - 50 New Skills).

Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. (Akihiko Matsui)

Given that, we may realistically see only a handful of Special Skills associated with it. Let's say for example, Paladin. Given Matsui-san and Yoshida-san's comments about the limited number of skills, let's say they plan to add 4 New Skills to the Paladin:

* Holy
* Final Phalanx
* Provoke III
* Invincibility (2 Hour)

The *rest* of the Paladin's Skill Set is from Gladiator. It makes no sense to level up Paladin from Rank 1 all the way up to Rank 50 (FIFTY) for 4 new skills.

I think the big picture request from those that want a Rank 1 Job is that it comes with a Full Set (40 - 50 New Skills / Abilities).

And the big picture request from people who are fine with the Rank 50 Gladiator = Rank 50 Paladin, who want challenging Job Quests, and Job Skill Unlock Quests is from the condition that Matsui-san said we're NOT removing Classes, so Jobs are a *Play Style, with a very limited # of additional Skills.*

If they really made White Mage have 50 New Skills and be completely different from Conjurer, of course I can understand the sentiment of leveling White Mage from Rank 1. But it's not the case. That's an important clarification that needs to be made if you're trying to represent everyone's sentiments accurately.

Thanks.

[Kiara]

Hi All,

I agree with ClashBlades, physic and Sephr:

Given what Matsui-san said about the Job System already (that it is a *playing style* using the Base Class as the basis (so the majority of the weaponskills and abilities come from the Base Class)):

I'd like the new Job System to have a challenging, multi-step set of Quests to Unlock the Job.

I'd like there to be challenging, engaging, multi-step sets of Quests to Unlock each of the Limited, New Weaponskills / Abilities for each New Job.

I hope they are challenging enough that it may take multiple tries and thoughtful strategy to unlock everything about that Job (the Job itself, and each of the limited, new Abilities).

[YUGON]

Thanks for your encouraging words Kiara =)

All what you said about the job system, it's a good point to take into consideration, and more in what I'm trying in this post.
I'll edit the first post to clarify this, and If someone needs to have something edited, just post it here and I'll edit it.

Thanks.

[AlexiaKidd]

Here is my other idea, this one keeps the Class system intact however so it is not my personal ideal solution:

I suppose the easiest way to describe my idea would be to think of it as the Job/Sub Job system present in FFXI but instead it would be Job/Class with Class being a sub job of sorts but there are a few tricks in here that would be new.

Firstly when you do not have a Job selected ie PLD, BLM, WHM and so on your Job is ADV (Adventurer). So when you start the game your Job is ADV and ADV is a vanilla class that allows your to cross class like you do now but has no special bonus traits that other Jobs have. When your ADV ranks up you get stats to assign how you wish just like other like the other Jobs so you can build your custom Job for soloing as you can now. Again this would use the system we have now only EXP would be used to Level up your ADV Job and SP would be for your Class.

Now for the other Jobs, for arguments sake lets say at Level 30 you can unlock Jobs for the Classes. So we rank up our GLA to level 30 and unlock PLD. Now PLD as a Job comes with certain traits, spells and skills. For example:

PLD Traits - Defence Bonus 1, Undead Killer 1, Resist Sleep 1, Shield Mastery 1 (Auto Guard)

PLD Skills - Invincible (2hr), Rampart, Phalanx, Provoke, Aegis Boon, Shield Bash, Cover.

PLD Spells - Cure, Protect, Shell, Banish, Flash, Holy.

The PLD will unlock new traits, spells and skills as by completing quests. To unlock these quests you will have to reach a certain Level with GLA so in essence your PLD Level is tied to your GLA level. So if my GLA is Level 50 my PLD is also Level 50 and I can undertake whatever quests I have unlocked to gain new/upgraded traits, spells and skills.

Now for the science bit ^^

If I have my job set as PLD and my class as GLA, I will have access to all my GLA skills and weapon skills as well and any that crossover will receive a boost. So Provoke could have a shortened recast time and increase the Enmity generated, things like that.

However, if I were to equip a Lance I would then be PLD/LNC, I would no longer have access to those extra GLA skills and weapon skills but all of my PLD traits, spells and skills would remain. I would however have access to LNC skills and abilities. If I was a Level 50 PLD but my LNC was only Level 20 then I would still be as tough stat wise as a Level 50 PLD but if I were to fight a Level 50 Mob I would miss a lot and do little DMG as my LNC skill is so low.

If however I do go out and fight lower Mobs and kill them I will receive SP for my LNC to Level up but not EXP for my PLD as that is tied to GLA.

Using the affinity system they could allow you to unlock higher affinity with a Lance and eventually allow you to turn into a capable PLD/LNC though as a tank you would still be better as a PLD/GLA for sure but at least this would allow you to use PLD/LNC even if it is situational and thus allowing a different play style for the job.

I would prefer it if the system was more flexible like this, while the Job is tied to the Class it is not limited to the class. I realise based on the info we have been given so far though that a system like this has very little chance of being implemented but I hope it does have some degree of flexibility as I really, really, really do not like the idea of being tied to a certain weapon on my Job forever.

[Nuru]

Here is my other idea, this one keeps the Class system intact however so it is not my personal ideal solution:

I suppose the easiest way to describe my idea would be to think of it as the Job/Sub Job system present in FFXI but instead it would be Job/Class with Class being a sub job of sorts but there are a few tricks in here that would be new.

Firstly when you do not have a Job selected ie PLD, BLM, WHM and so on your Job is ADV (Adventurer). So when you start the game your Job is ADV and ADV is a vanilla class that allows your to cross class like you do now but has no special bonus traits that other Jobs have. When your ADV ranks up you get stats to assign how you wish just like other like the other Jobs so you can build your custom Job for soloing as you can now. Again this would use the system we have now only EXP would be used to Level up your ADV Job and SP would be for your Class.

Now for the other Jobs, for arguments sake lets say at Level 30 you can unlock Jobs for the Classes. So we rank up our GLA to level 30 and unlock PLD. Now PLD as a Job comes with certain traits, spells and skills. For example:

PLD Traits - Defence Bonus 1, Undead Killer 1, Resist Sleep 1, Shield Mastery 1 (Auto Guard)

PLD Skills - Invincible (2hr), Rampart, Phalanx, Provoke, Aegis Boon, Shield Bash, Cover.

PLD Spells - Cure, Protect, Shell, Banish, Flash, Holy.

The PLD will unlock new traits, spells and skills as by completing quests. To unlock these quests you will have to reach a certain Level with GLA so in essence your PLD Level is tied to your GLA level. So if my GLA is Level 50 my PLD is also Level 50 and I can undertake whatever quests I have unlocked to gain new/upgraded traits, spells and skills.

Now for the science bit ^^

If I have my job set as PLD and my class as GLA, I will have access to all my GLA skills and weapon skills as well and any that crossover will receive a boost. So Provoke could have a shortened recast time and increase the Enmity generated, things like that.

However, if I were to equip a Lance I would then be PLD/LNC, I would no longer have access to those extra GLA skills and weapon skills but all of my PLD traits, spells and skills would remain. I would however have access to LNC skills and abilities. If I was a Level 50 PLD but my LNC was only Level 20 then I would still be as tough stat wise as a Level 50 PLD but if I were to fight a Level 50 Mob I would miss a lot and do little DMG as my LNC skill is so low.

If however I do go out and fight lower Mobs and kill them I will receive SP for my LNC to Level up but not EXP for my PLD as that is tied to GLA.

Using the affinity system they could allow you to unlock higher affinity with a Lance and eventually allow you to turn into a capable PLD/LNC though as a tank you would still be better as a PLD/GLA for sure but at least this would allow you to use PLD/LNC even if it is situational and thus allowing a different play style for the job.

I would prefer it if the system was more flexible like this, while the Job is tied to the Class it is not limited to the class. I realise based on the info we have been given so far though that a system like this has very little chance of being implemented but I hope it does have some degree of flexibility as I really, really, really do not like the idea of being tied to a certain weapon on my Job forever.

The thing about Job is that they don't have their own separate rank. Only way i see stat boosts are if Paladin boosts Defense by +20%, Vitality +10%, etc. of what you currently have. So in other words, if you were a Lancer 20, PLD would only boosts those stats by so much.

[Physic]

To Physic

So basically, you want an improvement of the currently Armoury System to define each class role, instead of making new jobs or advanced Classes, right??

essentially yes, still...
well i would put it as a define role overall, i wouldnt link it to 1 job.

so each job would link to multiple classes

[Gath]

If you think of Classes as just Weapons (Which they are.), then there wouldn't be so much confusion. Being a Paladin in FFXIV would be the same as being a Paladin in FFXI. Both have sword+shield equipped. Both have Sword Weapon Skills. Both play the same role in party.

Again, over and over again, oh, and once more..

Classes are Weapons.

Oh, and i may have forgot to mention, but..

Classes are Weapons.

Does everyone understand this at all? imo The Armory System is what sets this game apart form other MMORPGs, and is not a bad idea at all. The concept that everyone can't seem to grasp is that Pugilist isn't the Job, its the Class. Better to see this as just a Hand-to-hand weapon character without a Job equipped. That's what FFXIV is right now. Its FFXI without Jobs. Equip any weapon you want along with weapon skills.

With the future Job System, its going to make for a stronger sense of accomplishment if you were to quest for abilities and make those quests hard to do.

Anyways, yeah. Classes are Weapons.

I actually agree with this concept, if people actually look at it this way.

These weapon specializations (classes) we're using currently are just a big pool of skills that we have available to us, and the better skills being available at higher levels, that's all there really is to it.

The jobs we will get are just more refined, and geared towards a singular purpose, not a multitude of variations.
Who says we can't unlock the job once we get a certain level and play AS that job and when we level we get exp toward the class that you had to go through to be that job?

If we have hard quests to gain certain abilities, then there would be a lot of accomplishment, and you would "learn" your job while questing to make it better.

All this does is take away from the grinding of mobs feel, and gives it a new direction. It's still a time sink/grind, but it changes how other MMOs have worked in the past, to give itself a twist that it can call its own.

[Physic]

The thing about Job is that they don't have their own separate rank. Only way i see stat boosts are if Paladin boosts Defense by +20%, Vitality +10%, etc. of what you currently have. So in other words, if you were a Lancer 20, PLD would only boosts those stats by so much.

like this, except that they may have certain skills lose cross class penalty, so cures on pld might be as good as a con, cures on a whm might be 20% stronger