PLD or MRD?

[Set]

Inner beast is up quickly so high burst bosses can have a 20% mitigation fairly easily.

PLD has a stun on a low CD that can be handy. I like to stun last mob in groups at half health and run to get the next group in dungeons.

PLD cross class imo is better than warriors. I have been in a boss fight where healer dies and I live through it because I have cure and can pop Convalescence and cure. Pug doesn't bring a lot to table other then 2 ok buffs.

I find some things like Holmgang and Mercy Stroke useless on warrior. Really useless for tanking.

Hallowed Ground is great to have.

I think in general these two tanks are very balanced but the things I listed above are just slight nuances I have noticed.

[Kirinichibon]

WAR has good aoe damage (at the cost of TP). PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

I prefer 1h weapons and melee/spellcaster hybrids, so PLD made sense. That and I really don't like overpower spam.

[Enkidoh]

PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown. But it's still useful so it's worth saving for more of an emergency rather than being an essential part of a PLD's rotation.

[Zourin]

I find WAR's do better at aoe tanking, as Flash's effects are dubious at times under the best of circumstances, as are the effects of Circle of Scorn. PLD's are more healer efficient, their damage mitigation translating to more efficient spells for the healer, and generally make better single, large target tanking easier.

In the end, they're about neck and neck, although this is the first time I've ever heard that PLD's damage output was higher than WAR's. Shield Oath is generally a staple in groups not for the threat generation (although it helps considerably, especially for fighting for area threat), but that incidental healer efficiency.

[Kitru]

PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

[Kitru]

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown.

You're so very wrong about Convalescence. First off, I find it hard to believe that you could say that 30% +healing for PLD and 20% +healing for WAR is "not very potent"; that's greater mean mitigation contributions than Rampart, for PLD, and as much as Defiance, for WAR, both of which would probably be considered to be pretty potent tank CDs. Convalescence is actually the second strongest CD (not counting Inner Beast) that WAR has (Vengeance is 30% for 15 every 120; Conv is 20% for 20 every 120). The only "weakness" of Convalescence is that it doesn't provide any increase to eHP, which shouldn't really be a problem if you know how and when to use it (especially if there's a SCH in your group).

As to the CD, Conv is actually one of the fastest CDs that PLDs get. Rampart and Foresight have 90 sec CDs, but Bulwark and Sentinel have 180 sec CDs and HG is 7 minutes. As such, Conv is only slightly slower than Rampart/Foresight (and provides a bigger buff than either), but significantly lower than Bulwark or Sentinel (and provides a buff nearly on par with Sentinel with a longer duration to boot).

Also, as to the quoted statement, he was most likely referring to the differences between Shield Oath and Defiance, as opposed to a holistic view of all of their capabilities. Holistically, WAR and PLD actually have virtually identical mean mitigation and eHP even if they do so with different mechanisms.

[Jediman]

Well the name says it all "paladin" and check out all the final fantasy series regarding paladin. I would prefer if warrior had been a DPS role.
Keep in mind warrior user's 2 hand weapons, one would think since the warrior user's that there would be more damage output.
I hope if they are making a class's such as samurai or dark knight not to make them as tanks lol

[Kirinichibon]

I hope if they are making a class's such as samurai or dark knight not to make them as tanks lol

One or both of these classes will likely be tanks or have a tanking mode that's at least good enough for light parties if not raiding. What exactly would be wrong with this?

[Set]

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown. But it's still useful so it's worth saving for more of an emergency rather than being an essential part of a PLD's rotation.

I am speaking to Defiance passive healing buff not a CD related healing. Convalescence is irrelevant because either class/Job can have it.

[Set]

Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

Ok give numbers, I showed a way to test it.
My tests where
1. Test with sheild oath and defiance
2. Test with sword oath and no defiance
3. Test shield oath to no defiance
using
1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation
And i tested against
1. level 50 mobs 10 each counting the number of GCD off the best DPS rotations on both jobs
2. 3 boss fates, the ones you have to do for CT because i knew they where always empty.

Every single test pld came out on top with damage. You don't have to take my word for it just test it there is nothing to argue. I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.