PLD or MRD?

[Set]

PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff

PLD does slightly more damage than warrior. I was really surprised by this. If you want to test this out kill a few enemies in a row and count how many global cooldowns you go through. PLD was always sightly lower in all scenario based test cases.

Warrior is way easier to level, PLD should get shield oath at 40 and not 50 to balance this.

When OT and not tanking taking off vengence and using damage rotation on warrior doesn't shoot you up in threat. I have pulled off tanks before on accident with sword oath on just doing normal DPS rotation when I wasn't main tanking.

PLD flash is 360 degrees and overpower is about 45 degrees, this matters and makes group pulls much easier

PLD has 2 abilities off global rotation making it more interactive on pulls where warrior only has 1 on a decent CD.

On PLD you can tank bosses with DPS mode (sword oath) fairly easily contributing higher damage to group.

[Kirinichibon]

WAR has good aoe damage (at the cost of TP). PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

I prefer 1h weapons and melee/spellcaster hybrids, so PLD made sense. That and I really don't like overpower spam.

[Kitru]

PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

[Set]

Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

Ok give numbers, I showed a way to test it.
My tests where
1. Test with sheild oath and defiance
2. Test with sword oath and no defiance
3. Test shield oath to no defiance
using
1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation
And i tested against
1. level 50 mobs 10 each counting the number of GCD off the best DPS rotations on both jobs
2. 3 boss fates, the ones you have to do for CT because i knew they where always empty.

Every single test pld came out on top with damage. You don't have to take my word for it just test it there is nothing to argue. I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.

[Kitru]

1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation

None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.

First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

[Set]

None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

Butcher's Block
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Combo Action: Skull Sunder, Combo Potency: 280.

Storm's Eye
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Maim, Combo Potency: 270
Combo Bonus: Decreases target's slashing resistance by 10% and HP recovery via curing magic by 50% for 15s.
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance for 30s.

So here are the options on rotations and your BB->SE doesn't fill anyone of them
1) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
2) Heavy Swing > Maim
3) Maim > Storm's Path
4) Maim > Storm's Eye
5) Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block
6) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path
7) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye
8) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block

And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

So You ran the math and have parsers, lets see them. I can say I wrote a mod that screen scrapes them both and I found PLD do 500 more DPS than warrior. Doesn't mean it is true just means I can type words too. Like I said I don't need to argue it you can just find out for yourself using GCD counting on killing mobs. I explained my methods how about you explain yours. I am open to being proven wrong but proven is the key word I am not taking your word for it.

Also from your Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye explanation above it is obvious you don't know basic rotations.

First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

[Set]

And Kitru please point to your post here http://tinyurl.com/l76sdsd so I can completely annihilate your failure to compensate for a ton of things.

See the thing you lack is empirical data, all of your data is theoretical and ephemeral.

[Kitru]

so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? BB>SE refers to using the relevant combos in that order. Hell, you even use a similar model when you described your method. Being able to copy-paste ability descriptions doesn't really mean anything when you're incapable of actually understanding what's being discussed.

If you want simple evidence, just do the math for the explicit potency/GCD that WAR and PLD are each capable of. Unless you want to believe that PLD somehow gets more out of each individual point of potency than WAR does, you're doing it wrong. Hell, I seriously doubt that you're actually counting GCDs properly if that's really what you're doing over long periods of time.

No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

The person I was quoting that you were explicitly responding to explicitly said "more mitigation skills". If you're going to get anal retentive about quoting, at least go back and read the quotes as they're written. The person I was quoting was explicitly wrong about the number of mitigation skills. Even if the number doesn't have much bearing upon performance (and, yes, I know it doesn't; average and burst performance over time are what matter), the person was still explicitly wrong in their statement, and it's also why I described the general difference between the WAR and PLD CD suites while pointing out that they perform equally well over time.

[OmegaSinX]

Ok give numbers, I showed a way to test it.

Every single test pld came out on top with damage.

Take no offense but you must be doing something really wrong for PLD to out DPS WAR. Theres too many factors that Weight in favor of Warrior.


WAR's have to much DPS boosting Tools in their arsenal for PLD to out dps them. IE:
- Higher Potency Attacks
- Unchained
- Berserk (+50 Attack every 90 Secs)
- Maim ( 20% Damage, can be up 100% of a fight)
- Storm Eye (-10% Slash Resistence, Can be up 100% of the fight)
- Better AoE Damage via Overpower and Steel Cyclone
- Increase Crit In Defiance
- Internal Release (+15% Crit chance, every 60sec)
- Vengeance which does 50 potency counter attack on 2min CD.
-Wrath Abilities unaffected by the -25% damage penatly.



Take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsPp9IQXuc , and watch at 7:00 on. She's Crit for 1500+ Skull Sunder. She's most likely wearing all DPS accessories but still. WAR is capable of pushing amazing DPS for a tank. I myself have seen crits of 1300ish, but that doesnt surprise me when im on war. However, I am suprised if my PLD crits 1k.

[Enkidoh]

PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown. But it's still useful so it's worth saving for more of an emergency rather than being an essential part of a PLD's rotation.