"Open Style" vs "Rigid Structure" what do you want for the future of FFXIV

[AlexiaKidd]

The problems I have with the Freedom/Open system we have now are that it is not really free and open at all. You can not main heal as an Archer for example, you will only be effective at one thing as an Archer and that is Ranged DPS. The next problem is balance, I can see clear as day that this system is allowing me to create seriously overpowered Classes by allowing me to cherry pick the best abilities from all my Classes and combine them into a super class suited for a specific role. The next problem is that in an effort to achieve balance SE have made Classes very similar and this leads to the Class uniqueness problem. If SE place further restrictions on Cross Classing and make more things Class specific then what is the point in this open system.

I see nothing here that couldn't have been done better with the Job/Sub Job system of FFXI, only thing is that system allowed for more class/job uniqueness as it had tighter restrictions. If you were a WAR and you want to solo go /DNC, if you join a party and want DPS go /SAM, if you want to tank go /NIN. /NIN did kind of break the system for a lot of people but what do you think will happen when/if a skill like Utsusemi comes along in FFXIV that you are able to cross class? It won't matter what Class that skill is on or what rank it is, you will be expected to have it.

FFXIV with it's open system has the potential to be much worse than FFXI where elitism is concerned and a lot of people moaned about it in FFXI. In FFXIV with cross classing you will be expected to have those select few skill's/abilities that give your Class the edge when tough endgame roles around and certain builds start shining though. Only this time you might not have to level one sub job you don't want to, you might have to level five to cap just to get those skills to add to your super build just so you aren't considered gimp.

[Gundammeister]

What you're really saying is you're a baby and you want to suck on your spoon. You can't play well with others when no one but you defines the roles of your party. Just like a little baby, you're completely helpless to feed yourself your liquified food.

I, however, am gifted enough in imagination to be able to create my own outcome from the choices laid in front of me and I welcome the freedom it gives. Square Enix must not neglect you players who are not having a good time and so they will redesign the game for you, but that doesn't mean I will ever respect your lack of spine.

The openness of this game did correlate with its failure but that doesn't mean it caused its failure. To your lack of spine, lack of imagination, and baby urges, you can add lack of critical thinking.

Nice! I also think that the OP suggestions would kill the player driven economy, which I think is the best part of the game.

[Cairdeas]

They shouldn't have called them classes, called them weapons by their weapon name, no one would complain about "class uniqueness" then.

[lun4tic]

The elitism that characterized FFXI arose from the stiff competition for a a role in an EXP party. Since anybody can head out and gain EXP on their own, that shouldn't be as much of an issue, anymore.

World of Warcraft is a rigid game, and it's supremely boring. It doesn't matter which class you choose, there's a specific ability or spell rotation you have to use, specific stats have to have on your armor, and you can never compensate for your weaknesses. You will always easily kill certain other classes, and be easily killed by others. There's a little enjoyment in exploring the different classes and learning to use them, but there's absolutely nothing beyond that. You are your class, and it defines what you can do.

I don't want to play that game, and I don't want to see FFXIV became that game.

[Eekiki]

I want my rigid structure to go into your open style.

Come on! How come no one else is making these jokes! GEEZ!

[tachikoma]

It is funny. It makes me angry. As my friend below says you can make rigidness.. so all the whiners are gonna get is to take away my freedom.. and I'm.. A PATRIOT!!!

Do you really consider my posts to be "whining" in nature? I just want the game to be successful and contain entertaining content. A world where everyone can do everything without restriction fosters just that, a million players who all have the exact same skills and abilities nothing is unique.

FFXIV with it's open system has the potential to be much worse than FFXI where elitism is concerned and a lot of people moaned about it in FFXI. In FFXIV with cross classing you will be expected to have those select few skill's/abilities that give your Class the edge when tough endgame roles around and certain builds start shining though. Only this time you might not have to level one sub job you don't want to, you might have to level five to cap just to get those skills to add to your super build just so you aren't considered gimp.

This was what I expected to happen to FFXIV, everyone becoming super builds that all blended together. I'm just glad were getting more rigid elements being built in. I hope others can embrace some of these changes as if nothing else a step in helping populations by offering content for many types of players.

[Gundammeister]

The elitism that characterized FFXI arose from the stiff competition for a a role in an EXP party. Since anybody can head out and gain EXP on their own, that shouldn't be as much of an issue, anymore.

World of Warcraft is a rigid game, and it's supremely boring. It doesn't matter which class you choose, there's a specific ability or spell rotation you have to use, specific stats have to have on your armor, and you can never compensate for your weaknesses. You will always easily kill certain other classes, and be easily killed by others. There's a little enjoyment in exploring the different classes and learning to use them, but there's absolutely nothing beyond that. You are your class, and it defines what you can do.

I don't want to play that game, and I don't want to see FFXIV became that game.

LIked. Right on!

[Aldarin]

Eekiki

I want my rigid structure to go into your open style.

Very funny, but could also work as a system in itself.

There are a number of complaints about a completely open system, and also a number of complaints about a rigid system. For both sides, you make very good points, however I feel that neither the previous system, or adding jobs in with classes will fix the problems involved.

The issue with the current system is not the lack of class uniqueness. It is the lack of ability for other players to determine a character's role. If a party is looking for a tank, what class do they look for? Do they look for a gladiator, with a nice shield. A marauder with more parry, etc. This happened with all of the traditional party roles and people turned back towards the previous system for answers, calling for class uniqueness when what they really wanted was role specifications. The point of the open system was to allow players to create the character they want to play, but there was a lack of structure that caused the system to fail.

There are a number of benefits to a rigid system. However a completely rigid system would destroy the unique system of the game. Rigid systems provide an easy way to determine the party role of a character, because certain jobs are better at that role than others. They also provide a large amount of support for players who do not with to create their own classes, but simply play ones already there. Unfortunately, rigid systems have been done over and over again. There is also another rigid system that SE currently hosts, known as FFXI.

So what SE really needs to consider is a system that combines the rigidness of a job system, with the openness of the armory system. There are a number of solutions that accomplish this nicely that have been posted in the forums, most involving a 2-tiered system. Such a system would keep the armory system for the underlying freedom, and then add a job system ON TOP of that, which would give benefits and restrictions that allow players to indicate their role. This means a player would have both a Job and a Class/Weapon, where the job indicates and helps the party role, and the Class would allow players to pick their weapon and some other abilities.

In the case of the current solution, adding jobs in with classes. I feel that this is very close to a good solution, but at the same time seems like a half-worked solution. Considering that SE needs to get the system right this next time, I hope that they spend more time considering the benefits and consequences of different solutions.

[Kiote]

I don't think your aloud to use the phrase VS. if you aren't going to make a comparison..

The OP fails completely at defending his point by lacking in examples of his claims and for not defining and refuting the opposition to his argument.

Attempted Debate Fail..

[tachikoma]

its a simple debate in context to the other 15 hot topic threads that have popped up in the past month. If you take the thread out of context then yes its a failed OP since I don't present the different sides of the argument. I don't have to though as those ideas have been beaten to death in the past month for me. I simply am making a commentary styled post and the topic helps generate interest making it seem like its a heated debate. My goal was draw in the people who have been raging on specific topics where the central argument is over "freedom" vs "structure". I chose the wording Open vs rigid because its humorous word play. My goal was achieved and I now have a better understanding of the arguments on both sides giving me and hopefully anyone who reads this thread added perspective. Since we as a community are actively shaping the future of FFXIV the best thing we could all have is more information from all points of view. We can then make our own decisions as to what we wish to see and hope the devs take them all into consideration.

Way to troll a thread though nice work contributing anything meaningful.

The OP fails completely at defending his point by lacking in examples of his claims and for not defining and refuting the opposition to his argument.

I'm not arguing any specific point, except that the game bombed at launch and things needed to change. We still have basically the same game as launch and if they released PS3 today (before 1.18) it would bomb again and that would be the end of FFXIV as we know it.