Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[Rinsui]

I took some time to compile a list of both sides arguments. Please feel free to add or clarify as you consider appropriate. I tried my best to be impartial, as I think both sides *do* have valid arguments.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ntra-arguments

[Physic]

The problem with your example is that CoP was a series of missions and quests that were meant to be progressed through. You had to do a r20 quest before you could do a r30 quest before you could do a r40 quest, ect. That is NOT the case here. You have a dungeon designed for r30 characters and is a stand-alone dungeon without tie ins to other content. There is no progression in the r30 dungeon for a r50 player and by capping it you are only making it 'artificially' challenging.

do you think it would be a bad idea to have content that tests your skill across multiple level ranges? Or do you think tests of skill should only come in at whatever the level cap currently is?
because if its completely open to all ranges with no limiters, the reality is the dungeon wont be a test of skill.

Level is an artificial concept, so in order to create challenges, it needs artificial limits. in real life your skills, knowledge and etc is pure.

it really is like the racing car analogy, you skills as a driver are your skills, your level is the car you can buy/upgrade/customize. I can see why after spending years building the perfect car, you wouldnt want to get into a 1996 camry for a race, but i cant see why you think you should be able to compete in a race designed for 96 camry's with your superpowered customized car of the future, and get the same reward as the camry driving people.

[Rentahamster]

Wow, this discussion is still going on and on and on....

I think what Vedis and Monkey need to realize is that as a philosophy, we don't want to force players to do anything in general. Freedom and choice are good. However, in the name of game balance, entertainment, challenge, and replayability, the devs need to incorporate some form of restriction or another. That's what makes a good game.

Assuming that we want to force others to play a certain way because we're childish or jealous or something is disingenuous and does not respect the integrity of our position.

And, all together now...


"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Get out of here then, why are you 3 fighting for something that you won't do ?

Same old argument. I am fighting for something I WANT to do, and that is uncapped dungeons.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Wow, this discussion is still going on and on and on....

I think what Vedis and Monkey need to realize is that as a philosophy, we don't want to force players to do anything in general. Freedom and choice are good. However, in the name of game balance, entertainment, challenge, and replayability, the devs need to incorporate some form of restriction or another. That's what makes a good game.

Assuming that we want to force others to play a certain way because we're childish or jealous or something is disingenuous and does not respect the integrity of our position.

And, all together now...


"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

Monkey is ok since what he argues about is about what is being implementing right now in it's current state and not about what this can bring and mean for future content and his arguments make sense if you only consider those 2 particular dungeons and if you think that they are shallow content that doesn't affect anything else in the game.

Vedis on the other hand is pretty much just out for himself, not even wanting an optional cap that would give greater reward because of the greater risk of failure is just proving that this person is not willing to work for his items and hides behind that saying that everyone should be entiltled to the same rewards regardless of the effort/skills involved. Even tho there is still freedom in chosing going the hard or easy way, he is too blind and thick to see past his nose.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

do you think it would be a bad idea to have content that tests your skill across multiple level ranges? Or do you think tests of skill should only come in at whatever the level cap currently is?
because if its completely open to all ranges with no limiters, the reality is the dungeon wont be a test of skill.

Level is an artificial concept, so in order to create challenges, it needs artificial limits. in real life your skills, knowledge and etc is pure.

it really is like the racing car analogy, you skills as a driver are your skills, your level is the car you can buy/upgrade/customize. I can see why after spending years building the perfect car, you wouldnt want to get into a 1996 camry for a race, but i cant see why you think you should be able to compete in a race designed for 96 camry's with your superpowered customized car of the future, and get the same reward as the camry driving people.

There are a couple problems with your arguments.

The first one is that a "Level" is not an artificial concept. You 'Level Up' through out your whole life. You start your education in Kindergarten. Through learning and executing skills, you graduate kindergarten and 'Level Up' to first grade. If you don't have the necessary skills, you are held back.

Your racing car analogy is flawed in that we're not talking about competing here. I don't have to compete with you on who can accomplish the dungeon first. Also, you have a point that a NASCAR driver has no business running a race built for a 96 camry. The problem here is that drivers are COMPETING for ONE reward, but whether you run this dungeon in 60 minutes or 15, we BOTH get prizes. You don't LOSE your reward regardless of how I run the dungeon.

[Krausus]

building content that is useful at multiple level ranges, for long term, is a better strategy.

which is why I suggested it in my post, your answer is to implement a system to make the same content more repeatable, it doesn't matter, its still the same content its still going to be the same whether you do it at 25 or 35, I want more different content. I been doing the same content for almost 9 months now. I dont want to do the same two dungeons for 9 more, they should focus on adding more dungeons not scaling the ones that are already being added.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Wow, this discussion is still going on and on and on....

I think what Vedis and Monkey need to realize is that as a philosophy, we don't want to force players to do anything in general. Freedom and choice are good. However, in the name of game balance, entertainment, challenge, and replayability, the devs need to incorporate some form of restriction or another. That's what makes a good game.

Assuming that we want to force others to play a certain way because we're childish or jealous or something is disingenuous and does not respect the integrity of our position.

And, all together now...


"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

"Game Balance"

"Risk vs. Reward"

The one thing I want to touch on in your post is that capping a r25 dungeon isn't going to make it 'replayable'. r50 players will run it 3 times to experience the challenge and then move on. If the dungeon were UNCAPPED, however, r50s would run it 10-15 times to actually farm the mediocre gear, there by making an uncapped dungeon more 'replayable' than capping it.

[Rentahamster]

Your racing car analogy is flawed in that we're not talking about competing here.

Yes we are. This is an MMO. Everyone is competing with each other in one form or another. This is one of the components of an MMO that drives player to player interaction and imbues virtual items (which would otherwise be worthless) with an actual perceived value.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Nobody has said anything about my newest recommendation for a compromise:

WHAT IF:

What if it was a 'limited' cap? By that I mean, they could CAP the dungeon until quests X, Y, and Z have been accomplished. Successful completion of these quests would allow you to run the dungeon UNCAPPED. That would preserve both the challenge and the re-playability of the dungeon for both sides.