Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[Eekiki]

Of course I'm just assuming, I don't know what they planned to add aside from dungeons so I may be crying wolf for nothing. Maybe I will get my real content through missions, story fights and quests, idk. If this is all they planned to do with dungeons, then fine leave them be unccaped. I hope they do less shallow content in the future on top of additional dungeons so that there is actually a game to be worth playing.

Exactamundo. Since these are WoW-style dungeons, let's compare with WoW (even though it's taboo).

If you log on with your level 80 (or whatever the max level is these days in WoW) character, and head to a Burning Crusade dungeon, you will find them deserted. Nobody runs them. Nobody even cares about the gear, 'cause all they care about at that point in the game is level 80 ASAP.

What we hope for is some incentive to run the R30 dungeon even when we're R50 (for example, there was a reason to run through the capped CoP missions even if you were level 75 before CoP was released). Therefore, if there is a reason for an R50 to run the R30 dungeon, it must be challenging for that R50, otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place?

[Physic]

The problem is that it is a test of SKILL at r30. A r30 test of skill should be nothing to a r50. A r50 test of skill is a test of skill for a r50. But your side of the argument continues with the position that a r30 test of skill should be a test of skill for a r50. Well, LOGICALLY speaking, that doesn't make any sense, regardless of what story spin you put on the reason for a cap being put into place.

its a test of skill for an r30, but i guarantee you, a group of r30s who can complete said content have shown a higher level of skill than a group of r50s who complete the same content.
the real problem here is being level 50 isnt something that shows skill, it shows your power. as a level 50 you have way more resources, that doesnt currently correlate to skills.

Just because you have run races for years and now have a car that is like lightning, doesnt mean your a better driver than some poor dude. it just means you have a better car, and probably more fame. While a smaller race with only a 10k reward may be beneath your power level, they arent going to let you take you super built super car that you have definately earned in every race. some races are a test of skill, on a stock car. You dont need to do it, but if you do it at their level, you get a reward you can apply to your expensive car, and whatever fame beating that race brings.

you want to be able to bring your super car to every race though, some content just shouldnt be designed around how dope your car is.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Monkey, I will agree with you on that. Not putting a cap on dungeons is the sensible way to go if the content they provide is only relevant to the targeted level. Altho putting an optional cap would allow more freedom when it comes to help lower level player, but that isn't the point you are making.

I find that with your reasoning there would be, of course, no need for any cap. The point we are trying to make is that these set a predecedent to the future content. If everything they make is just shallow content with 0 depths to it and that we go through it in a matter of weeks then the game will get boring fast, and more and more boring as time goes by because there will be no replay value.

Of course I'm just assuming, I don't know what they planned to add aside from dungeons so I may be crying wolf for nothing. Maybe I will get my real content through missions, story fights and quests, idk. If this is all they planned to do with dungeons, then fine leave them be unccaped. I hope they do less shallow content in the future on top of additional dungeons so that there is actually a game to be worth playing.

I agree that it really is going to depend on the content of the dungeon and surely I don't make this argument for ALL future content either. If SE wants to do a series of dungeons or missions that require you to beat one before progressing on to the next, then a cap should definitely be in place. Personally speaking, however, I don't foresee that in this specific instance. To me, the r30 dungeon is just filler for those mid-levels players who may come back or may join in the future, not for the r50s already in the game.

but if you want the peice of paper saying you completed high school, you should have to prove you earned a high school diploma, and if you want the advantages or prestige that may bring, thats what you would have to do.
no one gets a high school diploma or GED without taking the test.

we have evolved past needing to do hand calculations, or even needing to be able to spell (spell check) but if you take certain tests they still expect you to handicap yourself by taking them without these tools.

you shouldnt HAVE to go back, but if you want the rewards that those things bring, its not insane to say you should have some rule sets.
Just like certain car races require a certain car that may be old, its a test of the skill of the driver, and in those cases the reward(money parts fame) is useable even to your high end car customization, and ability to get in races, but its not the only race available to do that.

Now it seems like you are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing by taking my example and changing it slightly to fit your own means.

The problem with your altered reality is that the r30 dungeon isn't required. You don't need it to get to r50 and you don't need it to get into the r50 dungeon, at least so far as we can speculate. There fore, this isn't a case of "Hey I am a senior in college/high school and ready to graduate except I haven't met the requirements for graduation because I didn't take a REQUIRED class." That is a completely different situation.

The r30 dungeon isn't tied to progression. It is simply additional content to give additional options of gameplay. it is not REQUIRED to get to r50 and making a r50 play it as a r30 is creating an 'artificial' challenge.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Exactamundo. Since these are WoW-style dungeons, let's compare with WoW (even though it's taboo).

If you log on with your level 80 (or whatever the max level is these days in WoW) character, and head to a Burning Crusade dungeon, you will find them deserted. Nobody runs them. Nobody even cares about the gear, 'cause all they care about at that point in the game is level 80 ASAP.

What we hope for is some incentive to run the R30 dungeon even when we're R50 (for example, there was a reason to run through the capped CoP missions even if you were level 75 before CoP was released). Therefore, if there is a reason for an R50 to run the R30 dungeon, it must be challenging for that R50, otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place?

The problem with your example is that CoP was a series of missions and quests that were meant to be progressed through. You had to do a r20 quest before you could do a r30 quest before you could do a r40 quest, ect. That is NOT the case here. You have a dungeon designed for r30 characters and is a stand-alone dungeon without tie ins to other content. There is no progression in the r30 dungeon for a r50 player and by capping it you are only making it 'artificially' challenging.

[Eekiki]

The problem with your example is that CoP was a series of missions and quests that were meant to be progressed through. You had to do a r20 quest before you could do a r30 quest before you could do a r40 quest, ect. That is NOT the case here. You have a dungeon designed for r30 characters and is a stand-alone dungeon without tie ins to other content. There is no progression in the r30 dungeon for a r50 player and by capping it you are only making it 'artificially' challenging.

Right, right, but while you're only talking about this specific dungeon, many of us are talking about this setting the precedent for future content. If everything is uncapped, what happens when they introduce content similar to CoP missions?

[Perrin_Aybarra]

why? Because I moved on past rank 25 long ago, in my eyes its a waist of time, gear of that rank is out ranked rather quickly in a game that takes little time to rank up. At rank 25 you dont have enough skills to learn how to play your class the way it should be played so the argument of it helping folks learn how to play goes out the window.

I like that they did add a dungeon at that rank, it does help to break up the boring life of grinding leves. Though I know that it is going to be short lived for most players, they will run it a few times and move on to bigger and better things. I KNOW this. I have played MMOs for long enough to know this. So why would I want SE to spend so many resources to add in a cap system when they should be focusing on adding in rank 35, 40, 45+ dungeons large scale raid instances, a chocobo system, airships, more jobs, player ran companies, housing, company built cities.

So why spend 3+ months in designing a system that makes low level content more repeatable. Its a step back not a step forward. Sorry i would rather this game move forward then appease a handful of vocal players that want to rinse and repeat a rank 25 dungeon.

if they want to add this system to the game slowly while working on more important stuff then fine, I'm ok with that, but they should do it in a way that makes it optional not forceful.

the thing is, is you ever played FFXI in it's golden age. You should know that there is such a thing as horizontal character development and that it can be relevant for a high level player to do lower level content because it either leads to other parts of the story or gives rewards that is relevant even at high level. That is why FFXI was able to keep the level 75 as max level for such a long time because each expansion was not making the previous content old and irrelevant.

What you are asking, the "im past that level so moving on" and the "tossing aside of low level content" will just make the game that much more boring because those content are so sparcely added, SE is very slow in putting out content, and you will only have a few things to do everytime they add content and then have to wait 9 months for more.

Cap events like CoP missions, BCNMs and such contribute to keeping the game alive and challenging even when you get high level. If you want stuff for low level jobs, you can acquire them but you still need skill to get them. With the CoP missions you had a story arc and increasing cap with missions ultimately leading to 75 but all the while you were progressing you had a challenge and a goal.

Edit: to clarify, horizontal progression means that even tho you add content, what you get from the old content is still relevant to your character and should provide a challenge to go through it at any point even if you decide to max your level. So that with each expansion and new content, you don't allineate the content that is already in place. A new player joining will find a incentive in beating the old content in place and the new content because it will be relevant to his progression.

Vertical progression is like WoW, it's only relevant for 5 levels at a time, everytime there is an expansion the only progression and development is by going foward, either by leveling up more or acquiring better gears. So that makes all old content irrelevant, unsused and a waste of time to go back and do. A new player joining will even find it a waste of time to experience the old content because the real challenge only starts at the max level.

[Physic]

why? Because I moved on past rank 25 long ago, in my eyes its a waist of time, gear of that rank is out ranked rather quickly in a game that takes little time to rank up. At rank 25 you dont have enough skills to learn how to play your class the way it should be played so the argument of it helping folks learn how to play goes out the window.

I like that they did add a dungeon at that rank, it does help to break up the boring life of grinding leves. Though I know that it is going to be short lived for most players, they will run it a few times and move on to bigger and better things. I KNOW this. I have played MMOs for long enough to know this. So why would I want SE to spend so many resources to add in a cap system when they should be focusing on adding in rank 35, 40, 45+ dungeons large scale raid instances, a chocobo system, airships, more jobs, player ran companies, housing, company built cities.

So why spend 3+ months in designing a system that makes low level content more repeatable. Its a step back not a step forward. Sorry i would rather this game move forward then appease a handful of vocal players that want to rinse and repeat a rank 25 dungeon.

if they want to add this system to the game slowly while working on more important stuff then fine, I'm ok with that, but they should do it in a way that makes it optional not forceful.

its moving backward for you because you have a level 45+ charachter, but for the game as a whole, its a better strategy. because they hope to have way more than just level 45 people. If you make all the challenge in the game start at level 45, you make everything before it only useful if it gets you to level 45 faster. if level 45 takes 1 month to get, it basically makes everything for a month of playtime, just a grind to level 45.

building content that is useful at multiple level ranges, for long term, is a better strategy.

[Richard]

Right, right, but while you're only talking about this specific dungeon, many of us are talking about this setting the precedent for future content. If everything is uncapped, what happens when they introduce content similar to CoP missions?

Thank you. This has been the whole point to the thread.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Right, right, but while you're only talking about this specific dungeon, many of us are talking about this setting the precedent for future content. If everything is uncapped, what happens when they introduce content similar to CoP missions?

But that is speculating on whether or not this is how they are going to approach ALL content, which we don't know. At this point, we're speculating on speculations! lol.

In the end, I agree that not all content should be approached like this and you have my support on that.

In my opinion, I think that maybe that is what the Devs are trying to avoid at this point. I don't think they want to piss off what could be a 3rd (this is an estimate not a fact) of their player base by telling r50s that they have to go back to being a r30.

In essence, I feel like they are trying to double the fun of the r30 dungeon by leaving it uncapped for the higher players. That way, the r50s can decide if they want to run it as a 25-35 for the challenge of it, and then start running it as a rank 50 to farm it.

How about this for pleasing both sides: Make a series of quests that you HAVE to run capped at r30 and then, ONCE YOU HAVE COMPLETED the series of quests or missions, THEN the dungeon is uncapped? That seems like it has the potential to appease everyone? Doesn't it?

[Chinook]

I guarantee that I will not run a r30 capped dungeon more than three times, no matter what the 'challenge' is.

Get out of here then, why are you 3 fighting for something that you won't do ?