Lack of tanks in the game

[NotTheNameIWanted]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have problems splitting combos to maintain hate. My only issue is, it costs too much TP/MP, especially in lv <30 dungeons to secure hate at start of the fight. So I either have to dump my TP/MP every pull or ask BLMs and SMN not to play their job correctly. That's my gripe.

Balancing the game for <30 threat generation is a bad idea though. And even if you do lose aggro every now and then each dungeon, *most* people aren't going to get uppity about it. Those that do are either jerks that more threat generation wouldn't fix (because they'd be jerks about something else), or panicky newbies who think having a mob punch them in the face a few times while the tank gets aggro back = bad tanking (which sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't - reality is, bad tanks just don't ever get aggro back, good tanks get on the mob ASAP or maybe let the aggro slip stay because it's on low HP and dies in 1 or 2 GCDs anyway). Both are things tanks just need to learn to deal with being the leader of the groups, if you never ate trash for other people's mistakes/not operating at 100% yourself then the role would be meaningless. That isn't to say that I take the insults as hits to my self-esteem and cry myself to sleep after every DF, it's just that to me, tanking is supposed to be for people who can take punishment and not let it get to them. In gear-terms and emotional terms. There's a reason most people just go DPS, and it has nothing to do with threat generation. Even with how easy tanking is in WoW, there's still a tank shortage. There will *always* be a tank shortage. The only thing developers can do is encourage the tanks that *do* play to queue up more often, which increased rewards will do. Most people aren't going to roll tank for added bonuses because if they could handle tanking they'd have done it in the first place, and the amount of people that'll make this change for the added incentive still won't make a dent in the numbers.

Yes you'll get attitude from Monks/Dragoons for repositioning while chasing mobs to get emnity back and things like that, but melee *always* complains about movement. If they didn't have to move, the game would get boring for them quickly as well since it would just be "stand still - do rotation", but there are absolutely melee that despise constant movement (and should've played ranged) and are *really* vocal about their discontent (due to boss mechanics or tank movement), you don't have to internalize their attitude or explain anything to them, just let them vent and keep going. Good players "get it", players that don't either haven't been playing long enough or never will "get it" because they have a bad attitude. Don't let it drag you down, don't internalize it, just keep the run going. Don't pick fights, don't give in to being baited into an argument, because both usually just *end* runs, and also keep in mind that sometimes the seemingly harsh criticism is coming from someone that is actually giving you good advice, but is emotional because you're the tank, if you make a mistake and they have to give you advice it's because your mistake just made the run harder for everyone. It's going to have some attitude behind it, even if they have good intentions.

If aggro didn't ping to players aside from the tank sometimes, tanking would be boring. Don't believe me, try WoW tanking in its current form. I absolutely do *not* want that with FFXIV.

What it sounds like people are saying is they don't like complaints, and if you don't want to hear complaints from other players you shouldn't play an MMO. Tanks screw positioning or lose aggro, Healers mismanage mana or accidentally go out-of-range and can't land a crucial heal, DPS misses rotation/CD management on DPS check fights or fails to blow an LB properly. Even if you do a flawless run, someone will find reason to complain. Making roles less fun will never change that, it'll just make playing amidst the complaints less rewarding.

[Dale]

RDM, SAM, DRK tanking in FFXI used to be a lot of fun, for those that felt like going that route to have a change of pace. Hell, there was a time when even BRDs and WHMs tanked some endgame fights. And these days MNK/NIN is way more fun to play than PLD. Just saying! But that's FFXI.

Unfortunately, FFXIV job system and ability approach is too simplistic. It helps Devs keep the game balance the way they want it, but later in the road makes all jobs boring to play. Approach to skill trees like in Rift or even GW2 could've made game play more fluid.

Point taken, but all they would have to do is add some kind of taunt move to monks and dragoons then beef up their defense some. That alone would help with the tank shortage on this game. Melee dps always seem to be at a disadvantage on MMORPGs anyway so it would also help alleviate that issue as well.

But I do agree with what you are saying. Over-balancing can ruin interesting gameplay. Not all of us are part of the min/max crowd and much prefer fun over being able to match everyone else exactly.

[NotTheNameIWanted]

I actually think allowing classes to fill multiple roles dilutes the roles. If Dragoon/Monk can become Tanks, then why not give Paladin's more healing potential so they can Heal, and Warriors more DPS so they can DPS raids if they don't want to tank? I know it looks good on paper, but I think it hurts the experience. Especially when you look at the core that's FF, and that these roles are doing exactly what they've been doing in the franchise since inception. Dragoons don't make sense to be tanks when their flavor is glass-cannon melee that leaps into the sky and crashes down to deliver a powerful blow, and Paladin's are front-line punishment takers with the ability for some party support, not guys that sit in the back avoiding damage to heal people. As soon as this starts getting messed with so classes can fill more roles, the meaning is lost. Want to tank, but main a Dragoon? Level a Tank job. Chances are you prefer Dragoon and just want to tank because you're currently out of things to do on your Dragoon, this doesn't mean Dragoons should become Paladin-like or Paladin's Dragoon-like.

I like how defined this game is right now with everything, but I can tell it isn't going to last. People want things homogenized so everyone can do anything on a whim.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[...] Both are things tanks just need to learn to deal with being the leader of the groups, if you never ate trash for other people's mistakes/not operating at 100% yourself then the role would be meaningless. That isn't to say that I take the insults as hits to my self-esteem and cry myself to sleep after every DF, it's just that to me, tanking is supposed to be for people who can take punishment and not let it get to them. [...]

When we're talking aboout low level dungeons where you're still learning your, possibly first, job, I disagree with what you said above. You should not get grief for the first 49 levels of the game. Even if your gear is bad and you lack cross class abilities.

Again, I can load SCH, go to let's say Halatali or Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, cast Protect, cast Selene and do NOTHING else for the rest of the run, just follow the party. Noone will die. And noone will say a bad word to me.
I can load Archer or BRD with lv10 bow and armor. Spam Heavy Shot for the whole entitety of the run. Noone will question my DPS. Noone will complain it took 45min to complete dungeon.

Try going to Halatali or even Sastasha with lv10 weapon and armor, get paired up with lv23 synced people.
The grief tanks get is due to imbalance in how game systems punish mistakes and shortcomings of a tank compared to healer or DPS. Game systems and balance issues make tank job much more stressful to level up, and Devs need to change those. 3k gil and 25k exp extra once per day won't change how stressful and not fun it is to level up tank. Especially for newbies who don't know dungeon layout, pull order, proper rotations.

I agree with you about need to make effort to manage threat when it comes to endgame tho. I remember massive issues my LS tanks had with Spiny Plume for example. And they enjoyed ironing out who, where and how pulls it. Or T4 Knights/Soldiers. Or Titan Ex. Or Moogle. But leave that to end game, where you have all the tools and gear at your disposal.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[...] I like how defined this game is right now with everything, but I can tell it isn't going to last. People want things homogenized so everyone can do anything on a whim.

Talk about homogenization is another basket of bisquits. I don't mind playing clear cut roles, but I do mind being able to gear up properly only 1 job per character. And leveling alt character takes a big hit on your sanity due to having to clear 100+ main story quests on top of leveling up to 50 and getting cross class skills.

We'd have more people playing as tank alongside their healer/DPS role they do for their FC/LS static if there weren't weekly Coil/Mytho caps forcing you to choose one good role or suck at two or three. Because for now people that play tank are people like NotTheNameIWanted from the above post who don't mind the extra responsibility and grief that comes with it. But among my friends, even those who play and enjoy tank been leveling other jobs for times where they just want to relax. I play the game for entertainment and fun, not hear complaints because my MP pool is too small, Provoke recast too long or range of my abilities too short to reach adds that popped on the other side of the room before Bard's 25yalm Heavy Shot snatches them. Oh, and dodging that Repelling Cannons + Firestream going off at the same time with 5 stacks on you. Fun times.

[NotTheNameIWanted]

I can load Archer or BRD with lv10 bow and armor. Spam Heavy Shot for the whole entitety of the run. Noone will question my DPS. Noone will complain it took 45min to complete dungeon.

This'll change when we get full add-on support and most people are running a DPS meter.

I hope I don't sound elitist, the thing is I'm new to the game as well, and my leveling experience in dungeons was pretty rough. But I felt that's because I was the tank, I had to lead things, set up pulls, and I didn't know *anything* about the dungeons. I feel a *lot* of the pressure would've been off me if I weren't new to the game after the content had been out a year, but that's the way it is now, most people running the dungeons *know* the content and expect everyone else too as well. If I was DPS, sure, what you mentioned would apply as well, but I'd also just have to follow the tank. Noone's expecting DPS to lead, that falls to the tank. And though the healing "rotation" while leveling is simple, so is the tanking rotation. The only thing that really makes tanking as a newbie difficulty, imo, is this:

newbies who don't know dungeon layout, pull order

Which is compounded by being a new tank in content that most people just want to speed-farm for dailies/weeklies.

As far as the "relax" thing... how does that apply to HMs/raids/extremes? I don't mean this to sound cruel (though I know it may be interpreted that way), but relaxing to some is having something that *really* requires their focus. Gaming = escapism for me, and if it's too easy, I might as well be watching TV, because the easier it is, the less interactive it is. Which is why I don't like the idea of *any* of this getting easier. I think it's fine the way it is. I'm actually displeased at the 2.2 notes showing how they're going to be nerfing existing content (ie. the Demon Wall nerf), but that's why I'm just trying to get as much out of this game as I can right now. As far as I'm concerned, people who want to relax by doing as little as possible should stick to laid-back content (crafting, soloing and upcoming gardening), while those who relax by getting more involved stick to the more involved content.

I realize it's not a popular opinion, but I love the spot the game is in right now, but I also know that over time it's only going to get easier and easier, until it gets so simple I end up looking for another MMO to start it over with again.

[XNihili]

To be honest I feel they should just make all melee jobs tanks.

In many many CT I went in,nobody wanted to tank Behemoth even though it's piss poor easy to tank him (the "hard" job is on the healers).
Even if all melee jobs were able to tank, most people wouldn't want to tank.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

I realize it's not a popular opinion, but I love the spot the game is in right now, but I also know that over time it's only going to get easier and easier, until it gets so simple I end up looking for another MMO to start it over with again.

I don't think you have to worry about that too much. They are nerfing<2.16 content so that people catch up to 2.2 content. Next week very few people will be doing AK for example, because armor it offers will be total junk and it will be more efficient to do new dungeons for points. Coil T6-T9 is where the hardcore action will be. Hopefully it'll keep us entertained.
Also, you don't sound elitist, don't worry, more like knowing your value and standards.
Also, I hope you had a chance to try Aurum Vale and The Sunken Temple of Quarn before all the nerfs. People timing out on first boss of Quarn... Good memories.

[Kirinichibon]

I didn't like the tanking class options, to be honest. It's completely aesthetic. I don't think the current incarnation of the game supports a light/evasion tank, but I would like something that *looks* like a light armor tank at least. Plus, tanks do have a good bit of responsibility and screwing up your first pass at content is embarrassing. I've sucked it up and am working on my PLD now.

Though, if your groups are giving you a tough time as tank - at level 50 there are some things that you should know how to do REALLY well: gather groups of mobs, which of your skills give you the best threat in an instant, and how to grab hate fast and hold it. If you've been doing OK at dungeons on your way to 50, you should be a master at these skills by 50 - even if you don't know encounter mechanics yet.

Seeing fresh 50 tanks in story roulettes start chasing after adds after the healers start getting beat on really irks me.

[Nutz]

I don't feel like tanks are too weak or difficult to play really. Making flash and overpower even stronger for enmity generation than they are now seems silly. It would make it so that a WAR only needed to flash and overpower like twice each and the mobs would never look away even if he did nothing else the entire fight. Keeping hate with overpower and flash is already pretty simple in lower levels (no personal experience with higher levels).

The one thing I think they're doing wrong with the role bonus on the roulette is awarding more exp. Yes people like getting exp, obviously, but they should try to make the role bonus more focused on gil, seals, or something else that will possibly entice tanks that no longer need exp as well as preventing tanks from leveling faster than every other role (which only exacerbates the problem).