Wonder if anyone here feels this way?

[darkstarpoet1]

A big rush these days yep that be the so called hardcore players they wan't everything out fast fast fast they wan't gear fast but then once they got everything they want. The games boring and they quit in this day in age ppl want everything too big so big and endless that they never run out of things to do but how many games can offer that? wow messed everything up with the bigger than life mmo as now if a games not as big as wow it's junk or it's to small but try to be a lil like wow then it's a wow clone gaming is sad :P sorry i know my ENG is ugly if you can't read my post just don't bother with it thank you

in your mind this may be true, but the truth is you couldn't be farther from the truth. that hardcore players want long term goals and stuff you have to work towards. the casuals are the me me generation and want everything handed to them with zero effort put into getting it.

[Calyanare]

the casuals are the me me generation and want everything handed to them with zero effort put into getting it.

It's not that casuals don't want to have to work at something, they just don't want to have to spend several hours a day playing in order to accomplish a goal within a reasonable time frame. Like it or not, casual players are a larger proportion of the gaming population than hardcore players, so any game that wants to be financially successful will cater to this "I want to be able to do all the content, but I can only play for 1-2 hours every couple of days" type of person. Whether they should cater to these people is another topic. The truth is that they do.

Disclaimer: I am a proud no-life elitist etc. etc. but I understand where casuals are coming from.

I added this to my earlier post as well, but just in case:

Why can't we have both?

Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

[darkstarpoet1]

It's not that casuals don't want to have to work at something, they just don't want to have to spend several hours a day playing in order to accomplish a goal within a reasonable time frame. Like it or not, casual players are a larger proportion of the gaming population than hardcore players, so any game that wants to be financially successful will cater to this "I want to be able to do all the content, but I can only play for 1-2 hours every couple of days" type of person. Whether they should cater to these people is another topic. The truth is that they do.

oh i know. i just wanted to use the complete extreme to point out the fallacy of the person i had quoted.

my point is i am pretty much a hardcore player myself, but i do have a job. what i want is enough stuff and it to not be locked to where if i have 2 days off in a row i can sit and actually play the game i am paying to play. i don't want to be locked out of content completely because i've already done it once for the week. what this game needs is a combination of content where there is some content the hardcores can run over and over, some open world content that everyone can challenge, and some casual type content that is challenging and they get rewards for that type as well.

[chococo]

oh i know. i just wanted to use the complete extreme to point out the fallacy of the person i had quoted.

my point is i am pretty much a hardcore player myself, but i do have a job. what i want is enough stuff and it to not be locked to where if i have 2 days off in a row i can sit and actually play the game i am paying to play. i don't want to be locked out of content completely because i've already done it once for the week. what this game needs is a combination of content where there is some content the hardcores can run over and over, some open world content that everyone can challenge, and some casual type content that is challenging and they get rewards for that type as well.

I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

[Gramul]

Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

Well, as a sandbox lover, I can tell you that personally, while I might wish for a game to have more obscurity in many places, forcing players to actually involve themselves in the world, I wouldn't demand Square remove quest markers or tutorials. I would however like to make them toggle-able/skip-able. And add other features that don't need to remove modern amenities such as horizontal progression and open world interactive quests (more than just picking up random glitter ridden items off the side of the road).

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

Did you find all my comma splices?

[Calyanare]

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

Actually, I mentioned those things because they are things I have actually seen people complaining about in forums (these and also those for other games). I have seen people complaining about almost every feature that you could consider a "modern amenity" up to and including the existence of any sort of map, and even the ability to zoom out to 3rd person mode. I also don't know how you could reconcile having tons of open world content with people who pretty much demand instanced content and a dungeon finder to put them in it, since the latter is casual-friendly and the former is not (and even some "hardcore" people like myself don't particularly care for open world content anyway). Since casual players make up the majority of the playerbase of all games nowadays (and not aiming for this is practically financial suicide for a game maker), even if there were tons of open world content, hardly anybody would do it. Seen anyone doing the FATEs in any but the most efficient areas to do so while leveling?

And then there's the fact that you can actually play this game (and most MMOs) in the same way as a sandbox game if you want to, but I guess people are too lazy to go into the settings and turn off nameplates, hide HUD elements, etc? I honestly don't know if this game lets you hide quest markers or not, but if it doesn't, it should. As for the all-important NMs question (I personally don't miss camping them at all, but to each his own), they are already in the game as high-level FATEs that nobody does because they don't drop anything. Maybe they should drop something, but not uber-l33t gear (maybe something cool-looking with crappy stats, for vanity?), and it shouldn't be sellable.

Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

WoW also has like 5 expansions under its belt. You can't expect a new game to compete with that. Edited to add: I actually have no idea how many expansions WoW has to date, so if that number is right or wrong, I pulled it out of the sky so it's not my fault.

I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

I have tons of time on my hands; however, I have no interest whatsoever in camping something that may or may not spawn that has a 0.01% chance of dropping an item I want. Just because I have time to spare doesn't mean I want to waste it. That momentary, fleeting joy when you finally get the drop you wanted on the 247th try is NOT worth the months of frustration, IMO. Now, if the gear that dropped from these wasn't better than, just on par stat-wise with current top-tier gear, with a unique look, and could not be sold, I might be on board with adding this as a horizontal progression, but getting the best gear in the game should never be 100% dependent on luck and latency.