[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Betelgeuzah]

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?

I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

[Kurokikaze]

IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.



But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?



Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

Forgive me by the way, I didn't mean for that to come off overly defensive.

Not necessarily spells, I mean that could be a choice, but you would have to choose from certain options. Lemme explain the levels a little better:

Each Level (5 max) is just progression for the specialization/job/omgwhatever. lol
Each level has a few things scattered in it that range from. Spells, abilities, spec enhancements (ex. INT+5 for BLM), spec traits (ex. Conserve MP 1 for BLM).

Now let's visualize this how they would lay this out (again this is an example):

LV1
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc
- INT+5
- Converve MP 1
- Other things. I'm fried right now.

It'll gradually get more potent and much much more specific to BLM once you get into the upper tier with the final one giving BLM's their signature thing (whatever that may be: Ga IIIs, AMs).

LV4
- MP Charge: When a spell crits you get 20% of it's cost back.
- Conserve MP 3
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc III


Now let's go back to the idea:
What I'm saying here is that you're given points and you must use a certain amount of points from whatever abilities/traits/bonuses/enhancement are in that level (or any level before it) before you can move onto the next level. This means that you go from the bottom of the list up. As opposed to now with no limits and we go from the top of the list down. Top obviously being better.

Is that clearer? I don't think I can further simplify that. This is what they've done in other Final Fantasies.

Btw: Talent trees are an evolution of old MUD games and D&D.

[Betelgeuzah]

Now let's go back to the idea:
What I'm saying here is that you're given points and you must use a certain amount of points from whatever abilities/traits/bonuses/enhancement are in that level (or any level before it) before you can move onto the next level. This means that you go from the bottom of the list up. As opposed to now with no limits and we go from the top of the list down. Top obviously being better.

Yeah, I see that. I am in favor of using them for traits and such, but what exactly in your opinion is the problem of going top down to bottom? I mean, we aren't doing that at rank 1 since we have no access to uber skills but once you're level 50, shouldn't you be able to use the cool stuff you've gained freely? Or is there a balance factor to take into consideration? Obviously the encounters would be balanced with this in mind, and proper limitations (higher action costs) can be set for equipping skills from other specs (not classes, since the spec skills are class specific) so that you can't hoard all the top level skills from every spec within the class.

What do you think?

[Kurokikaze]

Yeah, I see that. I am in favor of using them for traits and such, but what exactly in your opinion is the problem of going top down to bottom? I mean, we aren't doing that at rank 1 since we have no access to uber skills but once you're level 50, shouldn't you be able to use the cool stuff you've gained freely? Or is there a balance factor to take into consideration? Obviously the encounters would be balanced with this in mind, and proper limitations (higher action costs) can be set for equipping skills from other specs (not classes, since the spec skills are class specific) so that you can't hoard all the top level skills from every spec within the class.

What do you think?

My problem with going from the top down is what is happening now. ;/

If you leveled two classes to max and you picked from the top you're taking away that other class' identity. It's like if back in FFXI if you could hand pick your skills from your sub regardless of what level it was. Where would you start? Near the top, thats where I would start because its the best possible choice. So I would take my RDM and level BRD then give my RDM Mage Ballad II (Lv56 spell) and make BRD useless.

[Betelgeuzah]

If you leveled to classes to max and you picked from the top you're taking away that other class' identity. It's like if back in FFXI if you could hand pick your skills from your sub regardless of what level it was. Where would you start? Near the top, thats where I would start because its the best possible choice. So I would take my RDM and level BRD then give my RDM Mage Ballad II (Lv56 spell) and make BRD useless.

Oh, so in your system cross-classing is possible but to gain access to higher tier skills you need lower tier skills first?

I've misunderstood then. In my method cross-classing these 'spec' abilities (starting from 30 or whatever) wouldn't be possible (like you can't equip skills from above lvl37 in XI). With that kind of system, you can start from top to bottom on the class you're playing only, and say, the more high rank skills you take from one (your current) spec the more the remaining 'top' skills from other specs end up costing. And you still can't just take high rank skills from other classes since they're class-specific.

If we thought of it as a License Board, you could start picking skills anywhere you want in any given 'spec' board within your current class (as long as your rank is high enough ofc) but you couldn't access other classes' boards (aside from the pre-rank 30 stuff) without changing your class altogether.

Sorry for the confusion .

[Kurokikaze]

Oh, so in your system cross-classing is possible but to gain access to higher tier skills you need lower tier skills first?

Yes. In WoW it works like this 5 points > 10 > 15 > 20 > 25 > 30. The points don't have to be spent on that exact tier but they must be spent cumulative throughout the previous tiers before moving on (with the exception of the first obviously).

[Abriael]

My problem with going from the top down is what is happening now. ;/

If you leveled to classes to max and you picked from the top you're taking away that other class' identity. It's like if back in FFXI if you could hand pick your skills from your sub regardless of what level it was. Where would you start? Near the top, thats where I would start because its the best possible choice. So I would take my RDM and level BRD then give my RDM Mage Ballad II (Lv56 spell) and make BRD useless.

"taking away their identity" seems to be a bit overdramatic. In any case severely limiting the potency of cross-classed abilities solves the problem.
If I'm solo, the ability doesn't "replace" the presence of the other class. It simply adds versatility to my own character.
If I'm in a group, my ability will be way worse than that of the other class, so the best it can do is a support role.
Even if as a Gladiator I have Cure 3, with it's potency reduced to 50%, all I can do is throw in heals to support my healers and help my aggro (pretty much what paladins did in FFXI), most definitely I cannot main heal myself, or even less the rest of the group.

That can be pretty much extended to every class and ability across the board.