[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

I'm just saying, I'd rather have the open one is all. More choices is better even if a few of the choices are rarely used.

Like Red Mage /Warrior in XI, It might have been rarely used but I've seen them tank better then some (not all) some paladins, and most ninajs.

Yep, and thats where we disagree entirely. More choices doesn't always turn out to be better. We have a hundreds of choices in FFXIV now but we're still having this conversation.

And you think that with Job/Specs something like this wouldn't be possible? You would have more points than is necessary to complete a path letting you branch other into others in this example.

Actually no... I don't thinks thats what you have an issue with. I think you have an issue with the limitations that this will impose. You like using Rank 30+ skills from one class on another.

BLM Lv5 / WHM Lv2 is entirely possible in this scenario. Just not BLM Lv5 / WHM Lv5 while hand-picking the best things aka what we have now.

[Cairdeas]

Yes because you can use the current system to mix and match skills to create either old school jobs, or design your own, you just don't get recognized for it in game yet.

I could make a White Monk, or a Black Mage, or a White Mage, or a Paladin, or Dragoon, or a Berserker, or a Warrior right now.

I just don't have the title of it, but the skill load out is what is necessary to fulfill that job.

[Betelgeuzah]

Yep, and thats where we disagree entirely. More choices doesn't always turn out to be better. We have a hundreds of choices in FFXIV now but we're still having this conversation.

Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:

Now you further divide each section (impose limits to prevent abuse) into levels. Keep it simple for now with 5 levels. You need to put a certain amount of points into BLM Lv1 before you can use points on abilities/skills/traits in BLM Lv2. This would prevent overreaching that is happening now with people using Rank 30+ traits on different classes.

?

I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

[Kurokikaze]

Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:



?

I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

Because the way we have it now:

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

This is happening right now with every single class. As I said in the OP; "I don't know many people that leveled LNC to 50 but I can name a few dozen that leveled it to 20 for Fleet of Foot".

I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

[Abriael]

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

I'm sure you think so. I, and many others (probably most others actually, considering that the armoury system is the most praised system of the game, across the board) disagree.
And honestly I feel that if you think that Se will do away with a major portion of it, you're putting the cart in front of the horse.

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

That's easily fixed. At the moment class affinity between similar classes like THM and CON is very high. I would say excessively high. To the point that cross classed abilities have the same potency as the ones from the equipped class.

Lower the class affinity across the board (making sure that abilities don't become useless) and people will use cross classing abilities as they should, as support for their main class abilities.

The fact that the system has balance issues doesn't mean that it needs to be completely scrapped, or mutilated to the point that it's not recognizable. It can simply be rebalanced.

[Shazaam]

That's easily fixed. At the moment class affinity between similar classes like THM and CON is very high. I would say excessively high. To the point that cross classed abilities have the same potency as the ones from the equipped class.

Lower the class affinity across the board (making sure that abilities don't become useless) and people will use cross classing abilities as they should, as support for their main class abilities.

The fact that the system has balance issues doesn't mean that it needs to be completely scrapped, or mutilated to the point that it's not recognizable. It can simply be rebalanced.

Here is an easier way to fix it all:

Let certain earned abilities, like the PUG ability to get an extra 10% from healing spells, simply become passive on your character no matter what job you equip. You have 5000 hp... you get healed by a cure III for 500... you get an extra 50 hp... a small amount. * numbers here are all adjustable ( in practice you would probably change the skill to an extra 2% when not PUG-based main job).

It's like a merit system, you still get a small reward for having played and leveled other classes. I think everyone wants to be a better adventurer for having spent the time to level another class. Another example... the CON Fast Cast... once you learn the ability, all your magic spells will cast at an extra 2% faster regardless of what class/job you chose, and 5% faster on any CON-based class you chose.

These passives would be active after earning them, and never erased from your character. So your level 1 ARC would start with a passive 2% fastcast and passive 5% healing recieved, because your CON and PUG had already been leveled up.

This isn't a radical overhaul, it's just taking existing bonuses, and making them a part of your base character. Like merits from FFXI. It rewards players for having leveled a different class, fits into the lore, and removes the need for 'class afinity' that creates 'grey mages' that have access to any spell they like, while still allowing for balance.

EDIT: This is not for ALL ABILITIES, but perhaps one or 2 per class upon reaching rank 40 or 50.

For example: I have reached CON 50 and purchased the 'Fast Cast' ability with marks. From now on, any job I play will have a latent bonus of 2% faster cast time and 4% faster with CON-related jobs (BLM or WHM). That is the ONLY bonus I receive for having a CON 50. It reflects the time I spent leveling CON, and lets me utilize my CON knowledge on other classes, whilst my affinity with CON spells is reduced to 50%.

[Kurokikaze]

Here is an easier way to fix it all:

Let certain earned abilities, like the PUG ability to get an extra 10% from healing spells, simply become passive on your character no matter what job you equip. You have 5000 hp... you get healed by a cure III for 500... you get an extra 50 hp... a small amount. * numbers here are all adjustable ( in practice you would probably change the skill to an extra 2% when not PUG-based main job).

I'm sorry but theres not a single ounce of balance in anything you suggested. So what happens when you level everything, which people are actually really close to doing, and you have all traits...? Seriously, there shouldn't even be classes at that point and everyone is grey as you put it.

[Shazaam]

I'm sorry but theres not a single ounce of balance in anything you suggested. So what happens when you level everything, which people are actually really close to doing, and you have all traits...? Seriously, there shouldn't even be classes at that point and everyone is grey as you put it.

Perhaps I misworded my post, it would not be EVERY trait. Just one or maybe even 2 per class that become small bonuses like merits.

I am not suggesting that everything be available, but certain bonuses for leveling a class, akin to merits in FFXI. And at a greatly reduced benefit. Like I said, the number values should be reduced, changing Fast cast from 10% to a passive 2%. Perhaps one bonus for reaching lvl 50 that becomes passive. I like the thought that my main character in FFXI had an extra +2 to sword at level 20 from my having merited sword on my lvl 75 rdm.

It makes sense that after leveling my CON to 50 I would have some innate knowledge of magic, and thus I get a latent +2% magic potency bonus despite what job I pick. (again like FFXI merits)

Pick one or 2 certain abilities like 'fast cast' and let them have scalable increases as a passive (akin to merits). When you level everything, you get a number of small benefits like +3% heals done to you(PUG 50), +2% casting speed(CON 50), +1% damage(MRD40)... etc.

It isn't going to break the game, but it will set those who have earned the bonuses a 'bit' apart from the others.

[Betelgeuzah]

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?

I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

[Kurokikaze]

IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.



But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?



Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

Forgive me by the way, I didn't mean for that to come off overly defensive.

Not necessarily spells, I mean that could be a choice, but you would have to choose from certain options. Lemme explain the levels a little better:

Each Level (5 max) is just progression for the specialization/job/omgwhatever. lol
Each level has a few things scattered in it that range from. Spells, abilities, spec enhancements (ex. INT+5 for BLM), spec traits (ex. Conserve MP 1 for BLM).

Now let's visualize this how they would lay this out (again this is an example):

LV1
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc
- INT+5
- Converve MP 1
- Other things. I'm fried right now.

It'll gradually get more potent and much much more specific to BLM once you get into the upper tier with the final one giving BLM's their signature thing (whatever that may be: Ga IIIs, AMs).

LV4
- MP Charge: When a spell crits you get 20% of it's cost back.
- Conserve MP 3
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc III


Now let's go back to the idea:
What I'm saying here is that you're given points and you must use a certain amount of points from whatever abilities/traits/bonuses/enhancement are in that level (or any level before it) before you can move onto the next level. This means that you go from the bottom of the list up. As opposed to now with no limits and we go from the top of the list down. Top obviously being better.

Is that clearer? I don't think I can further simplify that. This is what they've done in other Final Fantasies.

Btw: Talent trees are an evolution of old MUD games and D&D.