New Job: Pugilist Tank

[Vire]

Rather than making an evasion based tank that requires to evade every big hit or die I would be inclined to agree with Kitru that it would require enough HP and armor to survive such attacks, or perhaps simply give them a job ability that allows them to receive overheals as shields with a cap of course O.O

And this is the exact line of thinking that is what makes both of you wrong. Evasion tanking is binary as it stands in this game and others in the past. Either you make it so evading no longer is a 100% damage reduction (Like how monk tanking in wow works now with stagger) or it doesn't work. If the tank can survive big hits without dodging that means dodging is just icing on the cake making them better at taking damage than any other tank right now. If they can't survive then they are underpowered. There have been many mmo's that have tried this idea from FFXI to WoW. It doesn't work.

[Kitru]

And this is the exact line of thinking that is what makes both of you wrong.

This is just getting exasperating. Evasion *is* a binary mitigation mechanism, but that doesn't immediately make it a mechanisms that makes it impossible to implement effectively as a tank. Nowhere have I suggested that it be changed as such. The only way that evasion tanking gets broken is if you rely upon evasion too heavily (e.g. as your sole mitigation mechanism) as opposed to the diverse suites that every other tank in the universe uses: armor, self healing, absorb shields, etc.

An evasion tank will still be an evasion tank if it's got ~20% +evasion; a tank isn't required to have a vast majority of its total mitigation devoted to evasion, nor is it even remotely wise, to be called an evasion tank because what defines a tank is how it differs from the others.

The MMOs that fail to do evasion tanking in a balanced manner are those that focus too heavily upon it and/or are ignorant of the need to balance both eHP and mean mitigation (you have no *clue* how often this happens; there's a disturbing tendency amongst game developers to try to find a single composite stat with which to balance tanks even though it's well known that you have to balance both). The entire point of what I've been saying is that you *can* implement an evasion tank in a balanced manner *as long as you do it properly*. Balanced evasion tanking isn't impossible; people only think it is because everyone tried to do it in the exact same unbalanced way rather than looking at the underlying mechanics and figuring out what they did wrong as opposed to why it was broken.

[Vire]

Snip

Sigh I don't even think you are listening to what you are saying. If you give a tank 20% dodge + the ability to survive any hit without dodging, just think about it.

You keep talking like there is some magical solution to this but the burden of proof at this point is on you. You can't just fold your arms and say it will work but no one has thought of a way to do it yet.

[Kitru]

Sigh I don't even think you are listening to what you are saying. If you give a tank 20% dodge + the ability to survive any hit without dodging, just think about it.

And how is it any different than giving a tank 20% damage reduction and the ability to survive any hit? Evasion is a mitigation mechanism just like any other. You seem to be placing it on a pedestal, and the only reason I can imagine for you doing so is because you don't actually understand tank mechanics.

[Maku]

And how is it any different than giving a tank 20% damage reduction and the ability to survive any hit? Evasion is a mitigation mechanism just like any other. You seem to be placing it on a pedestal, and the only reason I can imagine for you doing so is because you don't actually understand tank mechanics.

It is different because 20% damage reduction reduces a percentage of every hit. Thus they can get hit three time in a row and instead of 300% damage they have taken 240%. However, evasion is an all of nothing mitigation. If they get hit three times in a row they are either going to die or require more healing from the healer. If they evade three attacks in a row (if their evasion is boosted to that level) then they will instantly be better than the other tanks because the healers will have to worry less. You simply cannot compare a % system with an all or nothing system.

[Shurrikhan]

Sigh I don't even think you are listening to what you are saying. If you give a tank 20% dodge + the ability to survive any hit without dodging, just think about it.

You keep talking like there is some magical solution to this but the burden of proof at this point is on you. You can't just fold your arms and say it will work but no one has thought of a way to do it yet.

We give PLD a unique block rate, an ability for said block rate, heavy armor, and 20% damage reduction generally. The "just thinking about it" really isn't pushing a PGL tank that far into an overpowered zone.

One way to put this though is that a true evasion tank is indeed impossible, but a tank in which evasion is a significant and manipulated part of its showcase, so to speak, is very possible. That said, some changes to the dodge mechanic itself would likely make such a class both easier to make and more interesting to play, so I don't feel there's anything necessary about keeping its pure bimodality, or especially its pure RNG.

Edit: in the case of a PGL tank, though, I'd actually like to see both Fist of Earth and Fists of Wind come into tank use, likely with Wind as dodge, and Earth as simpler reduction/absorption.

[Exstal]

Sigh I don't even think you are listening to what you are saying. If you give a tank 20% dodge + the ability to survive any hit without dodging, just think about it.

You keep talking like there is some magical solution to this but the burden of proof at this point is on you. You can't just fold your arms and say it will work but no one has thought of a way to do it yet.

PLD 20% DR
Berserker 20% evasion

Hit 1
PLD - 800 damage
BSK - 1000 damage

Hit 2
PLD - 800 damage
BSK - 1000 damage

Hit 3
PLD - 800 damage
BSK - 0 damage

Hit 4
PLD - 800 damage
BSK - 1000 damage

Hit 5
PLD - 800 damage
BSK - 1000 damage

Total damage taken
PLD 4000
BSK 4000

BSK could get lucky and get more chances to receive 0 damage. But could be unlucky and receive full damage whereas PLD would receive reduced. Then there's Warrior who would also receive full damage (unless parry).