New Job: Pugilist Tank

[Kitru]

An evasion tank that doesn't benefit from evasion?

No, I was saying that Evasion does nothing for eHP, not the tank itself. Evasion is a mean mitigation mechanism, not an eHP mechanism. As such, you give the class +hp to allow it to survive the burst effects that you think render them non-viable coinflip tanks. This is exactly what the devs did with WARs through Defiance: +healing is there for mean mitigation and +hp is there for eHP.

You're just throwing out ideas that you'd think would work, not caring about how they would actually work in practice or their balance. You also still haven't commented on how an evasion tank will affect current mechanics like debuff stacking.

No, I'm pointing out the exact ways that an evasion tank can be implemented because that's how they're implemented in a balanced manner. The whole question of debuff stacking is a nonissue because the very mechanics that apply the mechanic relevant debuff stacks are those that you cannot avoid with evasion. Evasion does not nor should it apply to all attacks which you seem to think that it should. It's the exact reason why you provide it with eHP so that it can survive the burst attacks that it cannot avoid with the evasion working to simply reduce healing requirements over time.

Edit: For a new tank to be balanced with the other tanks, their total eHP and mitigation potential have to be similar. That is not only on paper, but in practice. Remember 2.0 WAR was somewhat balanced on paper, but due to how it worked in practice it was inferior to PLD. Evasion as a mechanic would skyrocket a tanks ability to mitigate damage, therefore for any semblance of balance on paper, evasion tanks would need to be less beefy then other tanks.

First off, I was the one that told you about the separation of eHP and mean mitigation as balance concerns for tanks. Don't try and copycat to make it seem like you know what you're talking about.

Secondly, WAR was not balanced with PLD on paper. It was a well known fact that PLD was explicitly better at mitigation which is why WAR was not brought. Defiance was explicitly worse than Shield Oath, the WAR CD suite was a joke compared to PLD's, and Inner Beast was basically worthless in 8m content. Anyone that honestly thought that WAR and PLD were balanced for survivability in 2.0 was deluding themselves.

Third, Evasion does not skyrocket mitigation capability. A 25% chance to avoid damage provides the exact same mean mitigation benefits as a 33% increase to healing received or 25% reduction in damage taken. The only time that Evasion breaks the game is when you have someone who doesn't know the math assigning numbers. Your whole "omg debuffs" argument is completely irrelevant anyways because you're operating under a flawed understanding of the attack system of the game anyways.

Please try to think things out before you post and insult, it cheapens the community.

I do think things out which you apparently do not (nor do you have much in the way of reading comprehension). You operate under flawed assumptions with a equally flawed understanding of the concepts while parroting things that I've already said in order to make it look like you aren't. Try doing some math and research before you tell someone who *has* done the math and research (and actually gotten changes implemented in other games exclusively through providing devs with math) that they're wrong. It cheapens the community when someone like you starts spouting inaccuracies as if they were anything resembling the truth.

If you think I'm being rude, I'm not. I simply cannot abide idiocy and don't feel like making people that don't know what they're talking about feel like they were doing anything but.

[Alwryn]

snip

We could go back and forth all day but I have neither the interest or energy to argue with you.


I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

[Ehayte]

We could go back and forth all day but I have neither the interest or energy to argue with you.


I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

You're new here, aren't you? : D

[Alwryn]

You're new here, aren't you? : D

Haha, in a sense. I used to frequent the forums alot back when ARR first hit. Giving out tips where I could. Mountain buster will always come after a landslide, coil tips, etc etc. Just the little details that can make or break a encounter. As we all improved and cleared content I just felt like there really wasn't much to discuss anymore from a progression standpoint. So, I stopped using the forums, only coming back every once and again to share some opinions.

But, are you really saying that an internet forum can be irrational and overly confrontational?! Sir, I'm am shocked! Shocked!


Well, maybe not that shocked.

[Maku]

No, I'm pointing out the exact ways that an evasion tank can be implemented because that's how they're implemented in a balanced manner. The whole question of debuff stacking is a nonissue because the very mechanics that apply the mechanic relevant debuff stacks are those that you cannot avoid with evasion. Evasion does not nor should it apply to all attacks which you seem to think that it should. It's the exact reason why you provide it with eHP so that it can survive the burst attacks that it cannot avoid with the evasion working to simply reduce healing requirements over time.

So evasion shouldn't apply to certain attacks (the most damaging) so you are giving them enough HP to survive them. However, evasion does mitigate other attacks thus reducing the amount of healing they need over time.

When would you use either of the other two tanks if this is the situation? If an evasion tank can take less damage over time cause of evasion but has enough HP to withstand the unavoidable and most dangerous attacks, you would never use either of the other two tanks.

[Kitru]

So evasion shouldn't apply to certain attacks (the most damaging) so you are giving them enough HP to survive them. However, evasion does mitigate other attacks thus reducing the amount of healing they need over time.

First off, it's not that evasion *shouldn't* work against stuff like EX Mountain Buster and EX Incinerate; it's that it *doesn't* work on those attacks. The only reason that matters in the least, however, is because those attacks apply fight relevant debuffs. If they didn't apply fight relevant debuffs, it would be perfectly acceptable for evasion to work on them because it's not providing any benefit over the +healing that WAR gets or the DR that PLD gets (which, if you consider that HM MB can be evaded but EX MB cannot, it's pretty indicative that the devs actually kept that in mind).

When would you use either of the other two tanks if this is the situation? If an evasion tank can take less damage over time cause of evasion but has enough HP to withstand the unavoidable and most dangerous attacks, you would never use either of the other two tanks.

I never said that it would take less damage over time than the other tanks. 20% evasion is no better than 20% DR where mean mitigation is concerned. That's the entire point. Evasion is simply a mean mitigation mechanism. If you provide it in the equivalent quantity as the other tanks get +healing or DR, it provides no increased benefit.

+20% evasion and +25% hp provides the *exact same benefits* as 20% DR from Shield Oath. That's the entire point. Evasion tanks are only broken when you screw up that simple concept.

[Alwryn]

I really shouldn't do this, I said I wouldn't. Curse my lack of self control and boredom.

+20% evasion and +25% hp provides the *exact same benefits* as 20% DR from Shield Oath. That's the entire point. Evasion tanks are only broken when you screw up that simple concept.

This is both correct and incorrect. In terms of total mitigation over a long period of time, yes. They are equal.

However, think of bulwark. Bulwark is the worst PLD cooldown. Why? because its unreliable, it doesn't always work. I've used it for a death sentence, blocked neither the plummet, the death sentence, or the auto attack and died because of it. No one was prepared for Bulwark to fail so spectacularly. Does this happen often? No, it's happened twice in the months I've been doing twintania but it still happens and is still a major issue in the very core concept of an evasion tank.

Evasion isn't reliable since it isn't constant, if you have some bad luck and don't evade during a burst phase, bad things can happen. Of course this works both ways as well, sometimes you evade alot of attacks. Point is, unreliable mitigation is not what anyone wants when they're facing down foreseeable burst damage. Why would anyone put their hands completely into RNG when they can take steps to mitigate damage through their own actions. Unreliable mitigation is inferior to reliable mitigation in practice, even if on paper they should be equal.

But another huge problem is once again, is debuff attacks and death sentence. What if you can't evade them? Imagine a PLD facing down DS without shield oath. Because if 20% evasion is replacing 20% dmg reduction or 25% hp/healing and you can't evade a death sentence; you're basically a PLD without oath, or a WAR without defiance. One of your main mitigation mechanics is now worthless. How will an evasion tank be able to deal with these situations? If it's some form of damage mitigation cooldown ala inner beast or rampart, whats the point? All you have now is another clone of the current tanks with different flavour text, but is also more liable to burst damage. Completely breaking encounters by being able to dodge fight relevant mechanics isn't viable, its broken by its very nature.

Listen, I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Total mitigation over a fight doesn't matter. What matters is mitigation when you need it, relevant mitigation. Death sentence, Wicked Wheel, Mountain buster, Incinerate Spam; you want mitigation for them. Who wants a ton of mitigation when the healers would be able to keep you up easily with their most mp efficient heals without said mitigation; it's a waste.

I still say we will probably never see a evasion tank. SE will not break their own mechanics and SE will not create another tank job that plays no differently then the others. If we do see one, it'll be different from what most people expect an evasion attack to be, which is what I've been saying all along.

[Kitru]

Why would anyone put their hands completely into RNG when they can take steps to mitigate damage through their own actions. Unreliable mitigation is inferior to reliable mitigation in practice, even if on paper they should be equal.

Which is why there is +hp.RNG based mitigation mechanisms are not a replacement for static mitigation mechanisms for spike damage situations. As I have said time and time again, Evasion doesn't isn't a factor when you considering the massive spike hits. It's explicitly because of the worst case stuff that you're discussing that any Evasion tank would need the ~25% +hp *because that gives them the exact same eHP as a WAR or PLD*.

But another huge problem is once again, is debuff attacks and death sentence. What if you can't evade them? Imagine a PLD facing down DS without shield oath. Because if 20% evasion is replacing 20% dmg reduction or 25% hp/healing and you can't evade a death sentence; you're basically a PLD without oath, or a WAR without defiance.

What you continually seem to be incapable of comprehending is that 20% evasion is *not* replacing 20% DR or 25% +hp/+healing. 25% +hp and 20% evasion are replacing them. Evasion is a mean mitigation stat. It does not affect a tank's eHP specifically because it can, and will, fail. You do not rely upon Evasion to keep you alive through something like a Death Sentence. You rely upon the 25% +hp that you would be getting *alongside* the evasion.

I have said this *over and over*. How do both of you keep missing this and act like Evasion would be the sole benefice given to this theoretical tank?

Listen, I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Total mitigation over a fight doesn't matter.

That's an ignorant viewpoint because, if you only care about eHP (which is what you keep bringing up), you're leaving out mean mitigation, which would be like giving WAR 25% +hp but no +healing: yes, they would be able to survive the same hits as a PLD, given the same starting hp, but it would take 25% more healing to keep them at that place.

You *have* to account for both eHP and mean mitigation when coming up with a tanking. On top of this, you have to realize that not all mechanics affect both, which I have said multiple times. Any tank getting a substantial amount of evasion is going to *have* to get something to bolster their eHP specfically because evasion doesn't do *anything* for eHP; it's a pure mean mitigation stat, and, honestly, it's not like the math is even remotely hard.

[Alwryn]

snip

You can really tell you don't have much experience in actual endgame. Practical applications, balance, it would seem all you can really say is mean mitigation and eHP. You're also contradicting things you've said earlier are are now proposing a evasion tank that doesn't actually use evasion in any meaningful capacity, once of which you're willing to give anything and everything to make it viable against criticism.

Well, whatever. I should have left this alone, but to err is human. I've said my piece, shared my opinions, and had some fun along the way. I've said all i need to say about evasion tanks in 14 and it looks like we're continuing to disagree. That's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion after all.

Of course, all varnished in a smug sense of self satisfaction.

[Kitru]

You can really tell you don't have much experience in actual endgame.

I've been clearing everything for Twintania for months already, which my (new) static is currently working on. Unless you think that the *only* endgame is Twintania (and, even then, I've been up to Twisters), I'd have to say you're outright wrong.

Practical applications, balance, it would seem all you can really say is mean mitigation and eHP.

That's because those are the two numerical concerns that drive tank balance. Would you care to enlighten me what else exactly I should be discussing when talking about balance tank survivability?

You're also contradicting things you've said earlier are are now proposing a evasion tank that doesn't actually use evasion in any meaningful capacity, once of which you're willing to give anything and everything to make it viable against criticism.

No, I've been saying the same thing I've been saying the entire time. Go read my first post in this thread: I explicitly describe the tank as having 30% +hp and 22.5% +evasion. If you think that I'm somehow changing what I've been saying, it's because you don't actually know what I've been saying the entire time, which just proves my point.

Concerning you saying that my construct does not use "evasion in a meaningful capacity", 20% is *quite* meaningful, unless you honestly believe that neither Shield Oath, Defiance, Rampart, or Inner Beast are significant. The shield for a PLD does less than the 20% evasion I'm talking about. 20% means a crapton. Just because it's not getting 50% +evasion, or whatever amount you believe is required to make it an evasion tank, doesn't mean that it's not an evasion tank; everyone said that 2.0 WAR was a self healing tank even though a *tiny* portion of their total mitigation was actually drawn from it. The "type" of tank is determined by how it is different from the other tanks, and all that's required to make a tank using evasion significantly different from PLD or WAR is to give them ~20-25% +evasion.