Monk should be more rewarding

[bokchoykn]

I'll weigh in here:

-Greased Lightning is perfect the way it is. Monks @ GL 3 outdamage everybody. Monks @ GL 0-2 don't. This is the intended design of the class. Stop demanding new abilities or tweaks that would allow for Monks to keep GL3 forever. Monks aren't supposed to keep GL forever. Monks are meant to lose GL. Monks are meant to be annoyed when they lose GL. Monks are meant to find creative ways to keep GL whenever mathematically possible. Monks are meant to piss off their teammates when they do dumb things in an effort to keep GL. It's great. I love it.

-At equivalent ability and gear, I find that Monk does more damage than Dragoon. Monk+Bard does roughly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard. Dragoon+Bard+Bard does more damage than Monk+Bard+Bard. This obviously varies depending on the encounter, since the two classes thrive under different conditions.

-Mantra is really fucking good. Not enough mention of it in this thread.

-What's better? DRG or MNK? Who cares? The overall difference is so minimal. Nobody is going to lose their static spot based on the minor differences of the two classes. They both get equally discriminated from dumbass Garuda and Ifrit EX PF groups anyway. Stop demanding Perfect Balance from S-E. Pun intended.

-I'm very satisfied with Monk. I'm glad I chose to gear my Monk over Dragoon and other DPS classes. I feel that Monk has the highest skill-ceiling out of all the DPS classes in the game. I think the class is very rewarding and probably one of the most well-made classes in a game where not all classes are well-made. Be happy, Monks.

[NoctisUmbra]

they can easily change it to increase GL duration but the effect won't kick in unless you have to be in the right position similar to what drg has.
I personally think it's just style of play - If you like the class/job you play, you would find the beauty of its imperfection.

This has nothing to do with imperfections. No job is perfect, or should be perfect. This is about balance. They attempted to balance jobs further with 2.1, and they did. Quite a bit. The point here is bringing up another area that can use a slight tweak.

[NoctisUmbra]

Monk+Bard does rougly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard.

False. This right here is the problem. If this were true, then there wouldn't be an issue. Then it would be a choice. Am I stacking BRDs? I should bring a DRG. However, currently is a vast majority of content, it takes a DRG and a single BRD to bring more effective DPS to a party. That's the problem.

Mantra is quite nice. Sure. It is ultimately a crutch though, and never really necessary. It's not indispensable as a skill, and although weaker it can be equipped by DRG, BRD, and WAR.

I have been playing MNK since the beginning of this game. Since beta as soon as it became available. I've cleared all content on it. I've optimized it to its peak. I know it like the back of my hand and can play it blindfolded. I am currently geared in full BiS i90 with allagan weapon on it.

I started playing DRG 3-4 weeks ago. It is i86 with a Holy Lance. Had darklight pants on even. I practiced its rotations on a dummy for a while and used it recently in extreme primals since we had a solid BRD player in the party.

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

[bokchoykn]

False.

MNK+BRD is roughly equal to DRG+BRD. Sometimes it is more. Sometimes it is less. It might depend on the encounter. It might depend on your testing. It might depend on the skill level of the player(s) you're using to test it. But I will humor you for the sake of this argument and we'll assume that DRG+BRD is very slightly more damage than MNK+BRD, but I won't concede any more than that because I would be lying. The word you used to describe this difference is "problem". Problem is a big word. WAR 2.0 vs PLD 2.0 was a "Problem". It was problematic because there PLD was so much better than WAR in every meaningful way, and WAR was an outright burden to the party. MNK 2.1 vs DRG 2.1 is NOT a "Problem".

Mantra is indeed quite nice. For you to say that it is a crutch and never really necessary, I think this exposes a complete bias in your argument. While Mantra is unnecessary (Of course it is. Otherwise you'd have to bring Monk to everything.), its job is to increase the margins of error for your healers, and help them stabilize an unstable situation by giving your entire party Convalescence. And it does a great job at that. The nature of boss design in this game is that incoming damage and healing difficulty occur in short sequences where 15 second 20% bonus to burst healing is a godsend: The final phase of Turn 4. The entire sequence of adds+bombs in Titan EX. The last few nails of the final Nail phase in Ifrit EX. MT or OT Liquid Hells in Twintania. Mantra is perfect for these situations. For you to consider the slight difference in MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD damage as a "problem" but dismiss 15 second 20% boost in healing as "just a crutch, unnecessary" is mind-boggling to me.

You also said, "Although weaker, Mantra can be equipped by X, Y and Z". Monk Mantra is QUADRUPLE the potency than the cross-class equivalent. The difference is night and day. But your only description of this difference is that it's "weaker". Not necessarily untrue, but an understatement to support your claim. If your claim that DRG cleanly outclasses MNK held any merit on its own, maybe you wouldn't have to make such exaggerations and understatements to make your point.

• The difference between MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD: "Problem"
  
• 20% AoE healing boost over 15s every 120s: "Unnecessary crutch"
  
• 20% Mantra vs 5% Mantra: "Weaker."

This kind of post happens in every MMO: "My favorite class is broken and underpowered. The rival class is overpowered. This is a problem."

You clearly exaggerate the advantages of DRG and totally understate the advantages of MNK to further support your claim, and you're not winning anyone over to your Monk pity party.

This is simply a case of:

"Rock is a problem. Paper is fine."
-Scissors

[bokchoykn]

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

Here are some additional problems with this testing.

Let's start with Titan. Titan is an extremely high-variance fight when it comes to measuring DPS output, particularly due to Gaols. The fact that we're involving two players here (MNK/DRG + BRD) makes the variance even more prevalent because we're introducing a second player here. How many times are you getting Gaoled. How many times is the Bard getting Gaoled? When are they getting Gaoled? Did the BRD have to sing songs at any point? It is rarely an equal comparison, and you would need many many kills on each combination to draw conclusive evidence. I'm talking 20 kills on each at the very least. Not once on each. That's a joke.

Alternatively, you could take compare your MNK's average DPS and comparing it to the DRG's average DPS and then add 11% of the average DPS of a BRD (to add Disembowel benefit). Unfortunately, that wouldn't work either. You don't know how many times the MNK grouped with another MNK or how many times the BRD grouped with another DRG. Again, variance. On top of that, Disembowel doesn't have 100% uptime on all targets, because you're obviously not gonna use the Chaos Thrust combo on Gaols and Gaolers. It's difficult to accurately measure the value of Disembowl to a BRD's DPS. Without VERY extensive testing, there is no way to draw conclusive evidence from Titan.

Ifrit favors DRG DPS over MNK DPS. DRG+BRD will probably beat MNK+BRD in DPS almost all of the time in this fight. GL3 falls off too often and Monks are worse at killing Nails than Dragoons are. However, Ifrit is not a DPS race. No, the final nails phase is not a DPS race, it is simply a "stability check". If you have a fully functioning party of 8, you will meet the DPS requirement. In this category, Mantra in that final phase in very valuable. DPS advantages in this fight are less important than most other fights. Mantra in this fight is more important than most other fights. Because of that, it's difficult to conclude that DRG+BRD is the better composition than MNK+BRD based on DPS differences alone.

[Butcherboy]

Noctus u just put in your spot. I have fallowed mnk since early access of the game and I have fallowed Noctus n every mnk forum and have always back the mnk community but this time your swaying away it. Mnk is fine and everything else is situational. That was a good read bokchoy

[BloodPact]

So, basically, let's get this straight; what's being asked here is a Dragoon nerf, not a Monk buff. If MNK is fine against all other dps jobs except for Dragoon, the obvious thing is to ask for a Dragoon nerf, not for a Monk buff... Besides, like many have said here; most of the time Monk is either spot 1 or 2 in end-game dps wise, buff it more and the next patch you'll be wishing that had never happened.

[NoctisUmbra]

Let me clear up a few things:

Mantra is quite a solid skill. I don't mean to undermine it. However, DPS classes are to be balanced first and foremost on their ability to DPS, and then on their utility.

Bokchoy, I'm not sure what you're basing your numbers on, but for 2 long walls of text that stand on the foundation that the difference between MNK + BRD and DRG + BRD is minimal and then simply go on forever with attempts to find holes in my argument... it was a nice read I'll give you that, but it leaves me with the impression you must really not be familiar with both melee jobs and their performance in content.

As for the whole rock paper scissors thing and any other part suggesting bias - I am a person who plays all DPS jobs because that's how I enjoy this game. I don't get precious about a single one. Turned out in ARR I played MNK a whole lot, and DRG I picked up naturally. I know the jobs intimately now, and when you experience both firsthand and play them at peak level perhaps things that can otherwise be easy to overlook begin to surface. At best I'll accept I may be "making a big deal" out of something not so ground-breaking, but I will say that the differences are enough to conclude that DRG > MNK in almost any endgame scenario and will likely continue to be so at this rate perhaps until another blunt damage type job is introduced and in demand.

The reality of it actually is, on average in endgame equally geared and equally skilled MNKs and DRGs will put out similar DPS. The difference is rarely larger than 5% between performance unless there's a big difference in RNG mechanics (MNK got a clean ride while the DRG got gaoled a lot). The basic idea is, when a DRG starts hitting it produces massive amounts of spike DPS, operating usually around 25-30% higher than its sustained DPS, and gradually over longer periods this decreases until it hits a steady value. MNK, on the other hand, has to wind up and thus begins hitting very weakly, and then reaches a steady sustained value which is higher than that of DRG's by roughly 10%. Furthermore, given access to Perfect Balance, MNK is able to match and very slightly exceed its sustained DPS with a proper opener to get GL3 quickly, but nothing that would be considered a spike. Despite this, PB is on a rather long cooldown. This is what people measure by doing dummy parses, etc. Sustained DPS. What isn't considered in that is when mechanics force melee jobs out of combat, MNK needs to wind up from scratch whereas a DRG will open with Heavy Thrust and get Disembowel off in another 2 hits, and voila it's at full DPS capacity. Furthermore, being locked away from DPS doesn't stop its numerous off GCD skills from ticking back to availability, and thus a DRG comes out with a bonus by being able to spike DPS after the forced break.

When will a MNK outDPS a DRG? On a fight that behaves like a striking dummy. Full uptime. Simple tank and spank. Atomos. Caduceus. Otherwise, they are balanced in a way that in fights with mechanics that force breaks from the target they will on average perform similarly. This is where the problem arises, as again DRG buffs the BRDs in the party, effectively putting itself ahead.

I'm really curious to hear what kind of experiences and tests you're basing your claim of MNK+BRD being more or less equivalent to DRG+BRD, since you were so adamant in poking holes in my contributions. Even going so far as to assume I simply compared one MNK run to one DRG run in each content without considering obvious things like RNG mechanics being different. I am one to hoard plenty of DPS logs, if you will, from past attempts at content.

I'll end with the ADS mention. While I won't deny I play a mean DRG, I'd check my facts on ADS and its various resistances if I were you. One of the simple, and I'd say even common paths, is to go left to take out Chain Lightning and Firestorm (to give you a more clear picture). The resulting ADS at the end has magic resistance and slashing resistance, whilst being fully susceptible to blunt and piercing. That is the path we've always taken.

So, basically, let's get this straight; what's being asked here is a Dragoon nerf, not a Monk buff. If MNK is fine against all other dps jobs except for Dragoon, the obvious thing is to ask for a Dragoon nerf, not for a Monk buff... Besides, like many have said here; most of the time Monk is either spot 1 or 2 in end-game dps wise, buff it more and the next patch you'll be wishing that had never happened.

Where did you even get that idea? At least in my case, I even explicitly said DRG is fine where it is compared to all DPS jobs. I'm of the opinion that even MNK is pretty solid in where its sustained DPS is. The main issue I see is with how GL3 works and how despite being the only efficient way of regaining it, PB is on such a long cooldown when it doesn't even have much of another purpose - especially considering it doesn't even spike DPS much at all.

[Narissa]

This fight over who's better or more needed in a group is pointless to me sometimes. Fact is, every PuG only ever wants ranged classes in this game sadly, because SE thought it would be a good idea to build most of the endgame content to be alot harsher on melee. I've lost count at the amount of times I got turned down with the message "No melee". or Just looking on PF and seeing only ranged DPS positions and if you try to make your own group, guess what? no one joins

The only way we get a group is either by forcing our way in through duty finder (guarda, titan ext etc) or being in a FreeCompany.

When it comes to PuGing Coil however, DRG is always goona be chosen over Monk, because there is always going to be a bard in the group and someone needs to press the LB button People tend to prefer Disembowel over Mantra which DRG can also get btw.

[NoctisUmbra]

This fight over who's better or more needed in a group is pointless to me sometimes. Fact is, every PuG only ever wants ranged classes in this game sadly, because SE thought it would be a good idea to build most of the endgame content to be alot harsher on melee. I've lost count at the amount of times I got turned down with the message "No melee". or Just looking on PF and seeing only ranged DPS positions and if you try to make your own group, guess what? no one joins

The only way we get a group is either by forcing our way in through duty finder (guarda, titan ext etc) or being in a FreeCompany.

When it comes to PuGing Coil however, DRG is always goona be chosen over Monk, because there is always going to be a bard in the group and someone needs to press the LB button People tend to prefer Disembowel over Mantra which DRG can also get btw.

Well the whole PFs and pugs in general going ranged and safe is due more to paranoia and a lot of melee players giving a bad name. It's a higher risk/higher reward role to play. They deal with a lot of shit, but bring much more DPS to the party when played well.

Typically DRG will be preferred even then as you said due to BRDs being common, also due to it being easier to not be complete trash on. That's not to say DRG is easier than MNK or vice versa. That's a whole discussion I don't want to get into. MNK is just more reliant on player skill to even be decent.

As for Mantra - yes it can be cross classed like I mentioned before, but that isn't to say MNK's Mantra isn't an asset. It is indeed a +20% to healing as opposed to a +5% healing bonus. I'm just of the opinion that the 2 melee jobs should be balanced further on the grounds of DPS alone (DPS in content) and that various utility bonuses, if not make-or-break, should aid in the choice for content and party make-up only, and not in DPS balance.

Lowering PB from the ridiculous 3 minute cooldown so that MNKs have a way of gaining GL3 more readily after drops would go a long way. Even making it something like 120 would make a huge difference.