This game isn't for hardcore players

[Rissy]

I'll stop asking when the people who "want to have fun" stop MMO hopping from game to game looking for the next WoW while destroying any game that tries to appeal to them on the way

People stop playing games when they're no longer fun. That has nothing to do with players ruining games, it's to do with the fact that the game lacks retention in the first place. You get on the themepark ride, and then stop playing when you've exhausted content, or just stop playing because the grindathon to get to the next bit of content is just not worth it. Unlocking things and playing through the story is fun, but people move on because they're looking for new experiences.

[Nadrojj]

I don't think anyone wants to be a hardcore player.

A lot of whining for hardcore MMORPGs is just whining for massive time sinks everywhere, rather than any increase in difficulty. And I get that some people want to feel special for wasting more time on a game than others, but you get a much larger audience catering to all the people with an actual life. I mean, it doesn't make for the most interesting kind of game, but a lot of the time sinks people lust after aren't actually that much more interesting either, they just have the psychological effect of feeling more rewarding to those with the time to waste on them. If you don't have the time to waste on massive time sinks, it's a complete turn off

I do want to see more MMO sandbox games, but a good sandbox MMO is all players and action. There's no place for a plot and scripted quests, it's all players shaping the environment and forming their own legacy

See this is where you're wrong , and this is the problem with making sweeping generalizations. There are plenty of us who want to time syncs. There are plenty of us who want long engaging quests (the ones you call grinds) for a unique reward at the end. As it stands right now there is nothing to strive for, nothing that set you apart from your peers just log in cap myth and get rewarded. I'd like to see unique and engaging content that rewards players who choose to put the "grind" in, right now it's fate grind or dungeon crawl and that's it.

I see people saying there is plenty to do, level fishing! Then what? Level fishing and now we have 50 fishing, what's the point? There is nothing like the lu shang rod quest http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Th...he_Competition from final fantasy 11 or the ebisu rod quest http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Indomitable_Spirit to keep you entertained once you reach 50 fishing. Want to sell your fish on the AH? Good luck with that. Same can be said for pretty much anything. Crafting? Sure let me craft the same thing everyone else is list it on the AH to get undercut 30 seconds later. No desirable unique item's to be crafted, no unique recipes, nothing to do but churn out the same items that everyone else is. Yeah I realize they don't want to put in items/quests/gear that will make the people who can only play an hour a two a night or week into the game, but until they do this they'll continue to see people log in, cap tomes and log out.

[XiaoliVorgan]

They dev need to be smart about it, they need to add harder cotenet that these hardcore would have trouble defeating, something of Twintania level...

Then of course you the others who will complain its to hard for them to get the same gears hardcores have.


And it takes about 2-3 hrs to finish everything on Monday... not 8+ hrs.... 2-3 hours a day is less than casual's playtime.

In the beginning at launch, content locusts were the type to play 8+ hours a day, maybe even more. It's becomes 2-3 hours a day after everything has been consumed and lockouts are all that stand in their way. I'd be willing to wager once the cap is removed and/or the new tomes are introduced, the same 8 hour grind will start back up to cap at 2000 as fast as possible, gearing every job in i90 gear as fast as possible until once again arriving at Mondays 2-3 hours a few months later.

The devs went about it the right way I suspect. I'm pretty sure just any old joe can't go into Twin and beat it. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are alot of people who still can't beat it. I haven't even seen it yet. Only time I ever complained about a dungeon was back before they had tweaked the servers and lag was hitting at random and lag is a red circles bestfriend.

How quickly do people forget that they PLAYED for their gear to be able to MAKE things like twintania and the extremes not so difficult. How quickly do people forget once they've gotten full i90, things won't be as DIFFICULT as it was when they were gearing up. It's like gearing up all the way erases their memory of how it was before they even got geared. Every player does not take the same route in gearing.

It's like taking a full i90 group into titan hardmode. You could probably beat it with a eyepatch, drunk, in the dark while changing a babies diaper.

Most of the time though, you're going to find people with a mix of i70 doing titan hardmode, it's not as easy for those people as the first group. The majority of the playerbase is not in full i90 with a mind erase.

Hell I remember when I was trying to do AK... OMG.. I thought it was the hardest thing ever (the firggan wall). (this was before I started doing primals HMs and coil of course). People would say "Lets do AK" and I'd be like "Erm.. I gotta get a root canal, see ya later!" lol I didnt have much gear and AK was just.... well anyway my point is.. Now, if I go in there with my whm, i86.. I can do it half asleep. Thats not the devs fault. Its not anyones fault. It's just naturally easier the more gear you obtain and the more times you have done it, you remember what to do.

[Ptolemy]

People stop playing games when they're no longer fun. That has nothing to do with players ruining games, it's to do with the fact that the game lacks retention in the first place. You get on the themepark ride, and then stop playing when you've exhausted content, or just stop playing because the grindathon to get to the next bit of content is just not worth it. Unlocking things and playing through the story is fun, but people move on because they're looking for new experiences.

XIV proves the first part wrong, that has alot more power then they think.

People want fun and they also want retention without the "time requirement" (i.e prolonged content, "XI type" gear progression (waiting for a monster drop) etc.) they can't have both, which is why many MMOs fail (not really fail, just doesn't see much success)

that is why they MMO-hop to the next "popular" release, push for changes (if it isn't the type of game they like), and leave when it fails to meet their standards


Casuals are the playerbase companies want because of the "popularity" boom of the genre WoW caused, they aren't a bad thing but the need to cater to every whim they have is, We can have a balance (Horizontal progression can bring it (What XIV originally was, just need to add modern tools (Duty finder etc.), the majority (the "standard mmo" BS crowd) would rather see the powerstruggle between casual & hardcore

[Rissy]

See this is where you're wrong...

Where is the part where I'm wrong? You didn't address anything I said. I never said there wasn't some people who like time sinks and I never said FFXIV was interesting in the state that it's in.

FFXIV:ARR was designed to attract casual players with a life, you can't reward the minority who desire massive time sinks, because then people are EXPECTED to participate in that massive time sink because no one wants players without that piece of gear. If you alienate players with less time to play, you're left with a much smaller market, and MMORPGs are expected to make money.

XIV proves the first part wrong, that has alot more power then they think.

In case you missed the pluralisation, I was talking about games in general, in reply to your ridiculous hyperbole claiming that casual players ruin games by having a life and not being obsessed. I play FFXIV:ARR for the aesthetic and community and just play it casually because that's the way it's meant to be played. You're playing the wrong game if you want to waste all your time grinding. Time sinks don't correlate with retention, people will leave mid game if they're bored of grinding. This game was made for people with a lack of time to play.

Casuals are the playerbase companies want because of the "popularity" boom of the genre WoW caused, they aren't a bad thing but the need to cater to every whim they have is, We can have a balance (Horizontal progression can bring it (What XIV originally was, just need to add modern tools (Duty finder etc.), the majority (the "standard mmo" BS crowd) would rather see the powerstruggle between casual & hardcore

Companies want casual players because there is a hell of a lot more market catering to people with a life. There isn't really a balance because people with more time to play games expect everyone else to keep up with them. You add horizontal progression and people will shun those with the lack of horizontal progression they desire for optimal strategy. You need to seek out games that aim to be time-consuming sandbox MMOs from the start. Grinding is a hell of a lot more rewarding when your grinding is the building blocks of a player developed society.

[Autymnfyres]

Truth for many Lumiin. Sadly.

[Xatsh]

Snip

MMOs are designed to make money. True.
-The only theme part mmo to do well over the long term is WoW. "0" of the over 2 dozen theme park mmos designed like that have survived as p2p and with more then 20% of thier playerbase past the 2yr mark. (So the model of making everything for casuals historically has lost company massive amount of money)

Time sinks do not keep people playing. False statement.
- Time sinks (long term goals) keep the hardcores playing. Casual do not like them because they cannot dedicate the amount of time to compete with the hardcores. It is the carrot on a stick it is what will keep the whole playerbase playing. So without them SE is garenteed to lose the minority (~20% of the mmo base, Nearly 50% of the base of XI's last mmo). So pushing hardcores away SE will lost 100k-200k people who would of stayed with the game for 6+yrs. Not a logical move. The vast majorityt of people quitting now... the already 500k+ people who quit this game. Ask them, most of the FF fans are quitting because the game has a MASSIVE lack of content due to the carrot and no stick syndrom.
-Remember hardcores are the ones who will stay with 1 mmo for decades... the casuals jump ship. You need casual content, but you need hardcore as well. This game will go to an early grave with ultra casual only content. Look at SWToR and Rift.

It makes sense to target the largest area of the pie. The lets say 28million mmo players nearly 24million are casual.
So 120 mmo games going after 24million people = 200k per mmo
So 3 mmos games that have any content for hardcores that will satisify the 4million = 1.3 million

Which is better....

As for horizontal progression... Your comments shows you have never played a game with it before. In EQ and XI the 2 games with the most Horizontal progression in the genre you never got shunned for missing a perfect piece. Honestly you are shunned alot less then the I89+ ONLY OR GTFO crap we have in XIV now.


People need to wake up. The casual movement is why almost every single mmo has failed. It should be an eye opener. How many mmo must fail before people and devs realize it.

You know what will happen. I am putting money on it. When this ESO, Wildstar, Archage, and EQN release and this game drops below 150k subs. We will hear the "Now players can enjoy XIV:ARR for FREE, Come back and celebrate XIV:F2P and Enjoy Eorzea on your terms" And we will get so much BS like comes from SoE where P2P is unsustainable when in reality it is just caused by garbage game design and attempting to force people to play for limited/non-existant content. People will be able to get more then just fant. pots in the mog station then.

[Richiealvian]

MMOs are designed to make money. True.
-The only theme part mmo to do well over the long term is WoW. "0" of the over 2 dozen theme park mmos designed like that have survived as p2p and with more then 20% of thier playerbase past the 2yr mark. (So the model of making everything for casuals historically has lost company massive amount of money)

Time sinks do not keep people playing. False statement.
- Time sinks (long term goals) keep the hardcores playing. Casual do not like them because they cannot dedicate the amount of time to compete with the hardcores. It is the carrot on a stick it is what will keep the whole playerbase playing. So without them SE is garenteed to lose the minority (~20% of the mmo base, Nearly 50% of the base of XI's last mmo). So pushing hardcores away SE will lost 100k-200k people who would of stayed with the game for 6+yrs. Not a logical move. The vast majorityt of people quitting now... the already 500k+ people who quit this game. Ask them, most of the FF fans are quitting because the game has a MASSIVE lack of content due to the carrot and no stick syndrom.
-Remember hardcores are the ones who will stay with 1 mmo for decades... the casuals jump ship. You need casual content, but you need hardcore as well. This game will go to an early grave with ultra casual only content. Look at SWToR and Rift.

It makes sense to target the largest area of the pie. The lets say 28million mmo players nearly 24million are casual.
So 120 mmo games going after 24million people = 200k per mmo
So 3 mmos games that have any content for hardcores that will satisify the 4million = 1.3 million

Which is better....

As for horizontal progression... Your comments shows you have never played a game with it before. In EQ and XI the 2 games with the most Horizontal progression in the genre you never got shunned for missing a perfect piece. Honestly you are shunned alot less then the I89+ ONLY OR GTFO crap we have in XIV now.


People need to wake up. The casual movement is why almost every single mmo has failed. It should be an eye opener. How many mmo must fail before people and devs realize it.

You know what will happen. I am putting money on it. When this ESO, Wildstar, Archage, and EQN release and this game drops below 150k subs. We will hear the "Now players can enjoy XIV:ARR for FREE, Come back and celebrate XIV:F2P and Enjoy Eorzea on your terms" And we will get so much BS like comes from SoE where P2P is unsustainable when in reality it is just caused by garbage game design and attempting to force people to play for limited/non-existant content. People will be able to get more then just fant. pots in the mog station then.

How do you put money on it, I would like to put my money on something too is that possible

[Rissy]

As for horizontal progression... Your comments shows you have never played a game with it before. In EQ and XI the 2 games with the most Horizontal progression in the genre you never got shunned for missing a perfect piece. Honestly you are shunned alot less then the I89+ ONLY OR GTFO crap we have in XIV now.

I'm talking about this game right here, not EQ, not FFXI. What possible horizontal progression can you tack onto this game to satisfy content locusts without creating gear or skills that everyone in the upper tiers of end game aren't expected to have (or being too meaningless to be a proper incentive)? Square Enix aren't going to create 3.0 for the grind-loving players with too much time, anything you add is only going to be tacked on to what's already here, and this is a game designed for players with a lack of gaming time. There's lots of people who love games but haven't got enough time to play. Whatever they do, they don't want to chase away those people because that's the market they chose.

It's not a black and white of casual and hardcore in reality. The people staying are fans of the aesthetic, and probably have a good community that they play this game with. The "casual" players that leave had no intention on staying here in the first place, and were always planning to leave when they exhausted content or got stuck on a grind that just wasn't fun any more. Some of them are content leeches that no lifed to end-game, knowing all too well that end game is shallow in games like this. They just want to be the end game elites until the next game comes out to do it in.

You have too much esteem in publishers' desire for a good, long-lasting MMORPG. Games don't fail because they're pandering to the casual market. Developers are just creating casual MMORPGs in the first place and going free-to-play is usually in the publisher's plan. Going F2P isn't even the game failing, it's the management deciding it's time to milk the F2P market instead. RIFT is a bad example for your argument because Trion Worlds was the publisher AND developer, and they resisted F2P for a long time. They likely only went F2P because Defiance was such a failure, and that was a game trying something different. FFXI still has a subscription, even though it's casual mode now. I fully expect ESO, Wildstar and ArcheAge to beat FFXIV:ARR to F2P at the very least (and EQN is starting off F2P) and there's a chance Square Enix would rather shut down FFXIV than go F2P.

I actually do want to see more hardcore MMOs on the market, but I have no delusions that something like FFXIV:ARR will find success with more time sinks. Sandbox MMORPGs like EVE Online are the kind of games that do hardcore right, I don't see appeal in extra grinding in themepark MMORPGs. I just don't get why people join a game designed for people with limited play time and then cry that the game wasn't designed for people with lots of play time.

they should probably try pvp, it's much harder than fighting a scripted npc (not even AI).

For extra hardcore credit, they should play PVP as the healer :P

[lxSch]

snip

I think it's important for everyone to understand that hardcore players are not better than casual. Game is meant for fun, so it only matters if you get fun or not, thus the way of getting it (chatting or beating titan ex) is irrelevant. I would only understand rant if hardcore players cannot get fun in any other way - well, they should probably try pvp, it's much harder than fighting a scripted npc (not even AI).