The tanking shortage reasons

[bokchoykn]

The same can generally be said about any role though. I agree, some fights are intensive on DPS knowing their stuff and performing but IMO it's like that for every role. While you can say which fight is harder on what role, no role is truly "harder" to master if that's what your point is getting at.

It depends on the fight to some extent, but different roles have different skill caps. It's one thing to be able to do the minimum requirement to do a fight and it's totally something else to push the absolute limits of your class, and I feel that melee DPS has the highest skill caps in this game.

[bokchoykn]

not really. Only twin has a harsh check due to the fact it's an i90 fight. Otherwise your dps needs to be 70-80% to brute force and 50-80% using alternate means to win.

If you're referring to this statement: "However, a good Monk does all the little things knowing that the difference between 220 DPS and 300 DPS could be the difference between winning and losing."

Yes, it's true. One of your DPS might fall on on EX Titan, and the rest of the team has to carry the rest of the way. Being a good DPS you put out shortens the length of the fight and lets you meet the continuous DPS requirements of the fight (Gaols, Gaolers, Bomb).

My FC sells EX Primal runs and I doubt we'd be very good at it if our DPS each did 80 less than they currently do.

[kukurumei]

If you're referring to this statement: "However, a good Monk does all the little things knowing that the difference between 220 DPS and 300 DPS could be the difference between winning and losing."

Yes, it's true. One of your DPS might fall on on EX Titan, and the rest of the team has to carry the rest of the way. Being a good DPS you put out shortens the length of the fight and lets you meet the continuous DPS requirements of the fight (Gaols, Gaolers, Bomb).

Even if they don't fall off, you just have to raise a dps at key moments, and you can make it though jail, superbomb, adds. Sure it's a risky gamble, but no getting around a healer or a tank death.

In titan ex, your dps can be double weakened, crash and burn on each stop, get raised, and still meet the standard for superbombs, jails, adds, burn. I have raised 1 dps 6 times in Titan ex and still felt like nothing was lacking as long as he died and didn't die in the right times.

Now if a healer or a tank gets a single weakness much less double weakness, might as well wipe.

And if SE fixes Auto-attack for melees, I bet you 80% of those "bad dps" becomes good over night.

[AmyNeudaiz]

It depends on the fight to some extent, but different roles have different skill caps. It's one thing to be able to do the minimum requirement to do a fight and it's totally something else to push the absolute limits of your class, and I feel that melee DPS has the highest skill caps in this game.

I disagree with your statement mainly because IMO you can't compare the value in the highest capability of the 3 roles.

IMO what's causing the illusion is the relatively low bar to be "good" at both healer and tank roles. If you get the job done on a regular basis, you're good at the role but if you don't, you're bad. It's my opinion that the bar can go very high for both of those roles just like DPS, people just don't care much because it gets the job done and the payoff for the extra mile isn't as great as the payoff for extra DPS. (Most of the time)

[ChestyBear]

That had nothing to do with being a tank since you were getting chewed out for clicking keystones (which anyone can/should do) as opposed to something that's actually the tank's responsibility. If anything, it should make you reconsider playing Qarn again, rather than tanking.

Actually as a tank in Low Level Dungeons, you're the one to decide whether to pull a trash mob and clear the room for Exp or just skip everything possible. What he describes is the same exact case, just with different execution. I've been in so many dungeons where DPS would go into an optional area and pull the mobs because the Tank didn't cater to their wish of killing everything for Exp.

[bokchoykn]

I disagree with your statement mainly because IMO you can't compare the value in the highest capability of the 3 roles.

IMO what's causing the illusion is the relatively low bar to be "good" at both healer and tank roles. If you get the job done on a regular basis, you're good at the role but if you don't, you're bad. It's my opinion that the bar can go very high for both of those roles just like DPS, people just don't care much because it gets the job done and the payoff for the extra mile isn't as great as the payoff for extra DPS. (Most of the time)

It has nothing to do with what people perceive to be good or bad. I'm strictly referring to the "skill cap". As in "how much better can you get at this class?" and "how much effort and skill is required to reach this level?" and it is in my opinion that melee DPS has the highest skill cap.

Is it necessarily important to play melee DPS at this level? Definitely not. The bosses in this game aren't terribly demanding. If Titan EX can be beaten with six people, this is pretty clear. But that's beyond the point I was trying to make, which was simply that melee DPS has the highest skill cap.

Even if they don't fall off, you just have to raise a dps at key moments, and you can make it though jail, superbomb, adds. Sure it's a risky gamble, but no getting around a healer or a tank death.

In titan ex, your dps can be double weakened, crash and burn on each stop, get raised, and still meet the standard for superbombs, jails, adds, burn. I have raised 1 dps 6 times in Titan ex and still felt like nothing was lacking as long as he died and didn't die in the right times.

Now if a healer or a tank gets a single weakness much less double weakness, might as well wipe.

And if SE fixes Auto-attack for melees, I bet you 80% of those "bad dps" becomes good over night.

All I was trying to convey was that higher DPS increases your party's margin of error and can win situations that are otherwise lost.

DPS is important and not just for meeting requirements for DPS checks.

[AmyNeudaiz]

It has nothing to do with what people perceive to be good or bad. I'm strictly referring to the "skill cap". As in "how much better can you get at this class?" and "how much effort and skill is required to reach this level?" and it is in my opinion that melee DPS has the highest skill cap.

Is it necessarily important to play melee DPS at this level? Definitely not. The bosses in this game aren't terribly demanding. If Titan EX can be beaten with six people, this is pretty clear. But that's beyond the point I was trying to make, which was simply that melee DPS has the highest skill cap.

I guess I ended up being less clear with my edit, my point is that the skill cap for either of the 3 are roughly equal but DPS has the given illusion that it's higher because it takes more in the eyes of the community to be considered a "good" DPS and often gets talked about to oblivion to reach that max while tank and healer just get by with "enough" because it doesn't matter.

[bokchoykn]

I guess I ended up being less clear with my edit, my point is that the skill cap for either of the 3 are roughly equal but DPS has the given illusion that it's higher because it takes more in the eyes of the community to be considered a "good" DPS and often gets talked about to oblivion to reach that max while tank and healer just get by with "enough" because it doesn't matter.

Again, my opinion has nothing to do with the perception of others. Just my own personal experience and observation of the classes.


I don't know how you can say the skill caps are "equal", when the roles are unique from each other, the classes are designed differently, and demand different a completely different skill set to learn each class and play them effectively. There's no way the classes can be perfectly balanced to be equally demanding. Are you suggesting that Bard is equally demanding to Monk?

While they are different, the degree of knowledge, technical skill and concentration required to play each class optimally is going to vary and I find it much more demanding to play Monk than Tank or Healer. As PArcher said, if I want to be lazy in Titan EX, I play healer.

[givemeraptors]

People love to say that DPS are the least important, and I just can't believe that people who have tanked (and done it at least decently) can say that honestly.

When I tank I TOTALLY know when the DPS is doing a bad job (attacking the wrong target, not doing enough damage) and IT MAKES MY JOB HARDER, and by extension strains the healer. Bad DPS can easily cause a wipe, not insta-gibb like a dead tank or healer usually signifies, but over time which is why their responsibility seems diminished.

IMO if you think DPS are useless you have either never tanked, or are not very good at it.

[AmyNeudaiz]

Are you suggesting that Bard is equally demanding to Monk?

While they are different, the degree of knowledge, technical skill and concentration required to play each class optimally is going to vary and I find it much more demanding to play Monk than Tank or Healer. As PArcher said, if I want to be lazy in Titan EX, I play healer.

Actually yes, I do. The mechanics to Monk are straight forward and simple to learn compared to Brd all you have to do is dodge, position, and use a rotation vs keep up with songs at certain points, keep your buffs and debuffs up, and use all your procs. But that's my main point, it's all subjective.

And personally I find it way more demanding to tank or heal than to Mnk. It's actually MY lazy job.