How viable is "Eye for an Eye", "Hawk Eye" and "Quelling Strikes" for a BLM?

[Dei-Nite]

Snip 3.0

I read constantly but rarely post. I disagree so strongly with the above that I felt I had to add by 2c.

Currently there are 2-3 encounters in Coil that if you are not using QS, even with the best tank in the world, you are not doing your job.

1. Turn 2: Third add going down the left side (facing outwards). This add negates some of the damage a tank will do and subsequently negates a certain percentage of their threat. If you are not using QS, you are either holding back dps (in which case you are not doing your job) or will likely pull aggro. Depending on the tank, you may still have to slow down dps slightly but without QS that slowdown is significantly more.

2. Turn 4: Phase 2 of the fight. If you are not going all out on the soldier right from the start, you are not doing your job. If you are doing your job right, any crit in the first 2-3 casts will absolutely mean you will pull aggro without having QS up.


3. Turn 5: This is much more relevant if you are single tanking the fight but QS is a huge help in going all out on the adds up during the pull. Again if you are not going all out on a hard enrage fight, you are not doing your job.


Obviously these examples are limited to raiding/coil encounters. I agree for general grouping, QS is less important (if only because pulling off the tank in that scenario is less likely to have severe repercussions). However, even in dungeons, a BLM should be able to pull aggro at will if they are using their full aoe rotation on an aoe pack (no matter what lvl skill the tank has) - its just math. Overpower or flash cannot keep up with Fire II spam and a double flare cast that crits. Using QS will keep your tank happy.

[Suroruro]

1. Turn 2: Third add going down the left side (facing outwards). --- I wont comment too deeply on this way as we never go this way with our statics tanks, But its generally all DPS holding back for this one even those with quelling as far as i've seen, Admittedly that's based on pickup groups whom are generally worse in general. and less experienced in their roles.

2. Turn 4: Phase 2 of the fight. --- My tanks have no problems holding both adds, And I didn't have any issue when I tanked it, I don't see quelling as a reliable enough use here as it would end up doing nothing most of the time. (Monks are in a much bigger threat of taking aggro)


3. Turn 5: This is much more relevant if you are single tanking the fight --- I havent done it with a single tank, So I wont comment on it, But with 2 tanks Ive never had any trouble with it aswell, So its hard to comment on the usefulness of quelling here...Again



-Minisnip- its just math. Overpower or flash cannot keep up with Fire II spam and a double flare cast that crits. Using QS will keep your tank happy. --- I have no idea about flash, My PLD isnt to 40 yet. But Overpower is much more aggro than you might think, Especially with maim/zerk/unchained or even just maim. Aggro is never an issue on big pulls. I kept aggro on a pull in Haukke HM earlier today and I forgot defiance. Admittedly I lost aggro on one mob because he was out of the cone at the start but that's hyur error.

So I mostly place blame on your tanks if you think quelling is ever /needed/ its a luxury to make their 'easy' job easier. The only valid argument I have heard for it being a required Xclass was someone saying that using quelling would allow a tank to open with maim combo, Which seems unlikely to me.

So I guess im saying that while it may indeed make my tanks happy, I'll stick with my Truth of the Mountains as my 5th xclass.

[Dei-Nite]

So I mostly place blame on your tanks if you think quelling is ever /needed/ its a luxury to make their 'easy' job easier. The only valid argument I have heard for it being a required Xclass was someone saying that using quelling would allow a tank to open with maim combo, Which seems unlikely to me.

So I guess im saying that while it may indeed make my tanks happy, I'll stick with my Truth of the Mountains as my 5th xclass.

We can agree to disagree but I would suggest your raiding experience may not translate well to most other groups. I would point to the fact that you are concerned that monks (arguably the highest dps in the game but one that takes a few seconds "rev" up) would pull aggro in a burst situation over a BLM (arguably the highest burst dps in the game). I am not saying it is impossible given different player skill level but I would argue this is pretty atypical.


If you accept the above then it must follow that your advice about QS would be very limited in scope.

[Suroruro]

your advice about QS would be very limited in scope.

Ill accept this. I don't see its use /personally/ but others seem adamant about its usefulness. I must be blind to something or stuck in some border case. It may be infintely more useful in other groups than my own, We learned together so its a bit different from a group that doesn't know how each other will act and how to react accordingly. I have asked most of the tanks I play with if they think I should get quelling and they always said it was useless, And eventually I leveled a tank of my own and it never seemed to be an issue.

[Cell]

IMO QS is must have for min/maxer and new encounter...after that it's meh

[darkstarpoet1]

I read constantly but rarely post. I disagree so strongly with the above that I felt I had to add by 2c.

Currently there are 2-3 encounters in Coil that if you are not using QS, even with the best tank in the world, you are not doing your job.

1. Turn 2: Third add going down the left side (facing outwards). This add negates some of the damage a tank will do and subsequently negates a certain percentage of their threat. If you are not using QS, you are either holding back dps (in which case you are not doing your job) or will likely pull aggro. Depending on the tank, you may still have to slow down dps slightly but without QS that slowdown is significantly more.

this is completely true. it also hurts the tanks keeping aggro as they have to move out of the aoe the mob puts around itself.

2. Turn 4: Phase 2 of the fight. If you are not going all out on the soldier right from the start, you are not doing your job. If you are doing your job right, any crit in the first 2-3 casts will absolutely mean you will pull aggro without having QS up.

there is a way around this one as a blm to easily do consistent dps while not using quelling with the knight soldier phases. quelling is much more needed during phase 1 and 3 when you will be using the flare combo's to me by far.

my quick way to avoid the soldier aggro while still keeping dps up. when the k/s drops in either t2 or t5 do not go directly at it. i use blizzard 3 and thunder 2 on the mt's soldier and then switch to the ot's soldier and throw thunder 2 and fire 3 on it. after i get out fire 3 i switch back to the mt's soldier and start with my fire 1 spam. this allows me twice the chance to get a thundercloud proc during the burning of the mt's soldier. it also gives the mt an additional 5 seconds to gain aggro while i am still putting out dps. the same thing with p5 k/s drops, but since there's not another soldier to attack i do the blizzard thunder 2 on the dread that drops with them as the dread tank gets hate easier since it's only single hate building.

3. Turn 5: This is much more relevant if you are single tanking the fight but QS is a huge help in going all out on the adds up during the pull. Again if you are not going all out on a hard enrage fight, you are not doing your job.

this isn't just turn 5 adds. this is true regardless of the type of adds you are pulling. anytime you use raging strikes it needs to be followed by quelling strikes when aoeing a group of mobs. this is just as true for twintania as it is running wanderers. when using the double flare during add pulls quelling strikes on the first one used with raging strikes is nasty damage and keeps you from pulling every single add in the bunch. i usually use raging strikes, quelling strikes, swiftcast, flare, transpose, manawall/manaward macro, flare. in that short amount of time i'm looking at 2k+ damage on every mob in the group so i'm going to pull a few mobs in every group. without using quelling strikes i rarely ever get the second flare off because i have a few mobs beating on me causing the spell to interrupt.

Obviously these examples are limited to raiding/coil encounters. I agree for general grouping, QS is less important (if only because pulling off the tank in that scenario is less likely to have severe repercussions). However, even in dungeons, a BLM should be able to pull aggro at will if they are using their full aoe rotation on an aoe pack (no matter what lvl skill the tank has) - its just math. Overpower or flash cannot keep up with Fire II spam and a double flare cast that crits. Using QS will keep your tank happy.

i don't want it to sound like i am disagreeing with you as quelling strikes is one of the most useful cross-skills by far to have and will save a ton of trouble without using it. the only people that are saying it's not needed are either going to be trolling or just bad at putting out dps in general so doesn't realize how much aoe damage a blm can put out in certain situations.

also try out my suggestion for phase 2 knight/soldier phase and see if that helps you. your dps will not suffer if you are quick at changing targets and, if anything, you are likely to see a small increase in dps due to not having to hold back, pulling the mob and having to reposition, and extra thundercould procs.