Minor tank balancing ideas. (WAR & PLD)

[Lemon8or]

stuff

Comparing Warrior using 16 GCDs worth of AOE and PLD using 8 is not exactly fair. Sure you can blow all that and be left with 0 TP while the PLD still has 1000 TP and some mana gained back from Riot Blade.
25% more HP and self-heal via Bloodbath(not counting Thrill of Battle since it IS a Cooldown and if warrior can use a Cooldown, who's stopping the Paladin from popping his) is balanced by 20% Damage Reduction from Shield Oath. Defiance alone is slightly worse than Shield Oath and Bloodbath is supposed to make up for that.
True that for Death Sentence, WAR has a slight edge in that he can have 30% damage reduction for every DS but who's stopping you from bringing a WAR to the fight as OT, put Storm's Path up and as PLD MT, you'll still benefit from that debuff. Again, you're comparing warrior using their Cooldowns with Paladins not using theirs. Inner Beast and Storm's Path heal are minimal compared to the damage being dealt in that turn. You don't think a Paladin should tank Twintania with just Shield Oath and never pop Rampart (same DR as Inner Beast), Sentinel (which is better DR than Vengeance), Hallowed Ground (inarguably better than Holmgang by far) and Bulwark do you? Do I need to remind you that Paladin can cross-class Bloodbath (albeit 30 seconds shorter but the heal is minimal) and Foresight while Warrior can't cross-class Rampart?
If a warrior plays well, they'll be on par with a well played Paladin. There is NO difference like you're trying to make it out to be.

[ReiszRie]

-snip-

Well, i was merely comparing their AoE crowd control abilities which it certainly is undeniable that WAR has a greater repertoire of crowd control skills

PLD's CDs reduces damage taken but does not replenish lost HP, more than often, I can recover the HP lost as a WAR by the use of ToB>Bb>SC>Infuriate>SC it is again undeniable that WARs are better for crowd control and being able to self-sustain in that situation

Even with a WAR as OT to apply Storm's Path, the PLD still does not enjoy 25% increase of max HP and does not have access to HP recovery skills and we all know that even 100 hp can mean the difference between a dead tank or a live one, therefore the obvious choice for WARs to MT in T5

PLD's CDs are far too long to be constantly kept up for damage mitigation, damage mitigation only works when it is used before the damage was dealt not after the fact. In the event that Twintania does a 6K DS followed by a 1.2k scratch after 1 second, a PLD that isn't at full health will most likely fall but a WAR will still remain standing as during that 1 second, a WAR can pop ToB to survive the scratch.

Rampart and Sentinel cannot be kept up perpetually but WAR's damage mitigation can be kept up perpetually, this is again undeniable and I'm sure you'd agree.

Hallowed Ground is great for that oh shit moment but the long cast animation makes it not very useful, Bulwark, increases block rate of shields but the fact that its not a guaranteed damage mitigation makes it risky to be used as primary damage mitigation.

Warrior can cross-class Internal Release, Second Wind, Convalescence, Feather Foot, Awareness.

There is a difference and this is from my personal experience playing both at i90 although admittedly PLDs are still a tad harder than WARs and easier to play but if a player knows what he is doing, a WAR can easily be the more capable tank

[whiskeybravo]

but if a player knows what he is doing, a WAR can easily be the more capable tank

That's because Wars destroy things with an ax while Paladin hides behind a shield

How about Bulwark? Are most Paladins OK with it right now? It doesn't really feel worth a 2 min CD to me.

[Lemon8or]

Man, why don't you see that your 20% Damage reduction is effectively 25% extra HP AND 25% extra healing. Here's a simple example anyone can understand: Say PLD has 7k HP, WAR will have 8.75k HP. Something that does 6k damage to WAR will do 4.8k to PLD. That means PLD is now at 2.2k HP or 31.42% HP while WAR is at 2.75k HP or also (surprise!) 31.42% HP. So in essence, a WAR not popping CD with Storm's Path and just Defiance is THE SAME as a PLD not popping CD with Storm's Path and Shield Oath. Why can't you see that and keep blabbering about 25% extra HP???? I don't get it. PLD doesn't have access to HP recovery skills because they are the tank that mitigate BEFORE the damage is dealt. Sure WAR can do it now too but not to the extent that PLD can. Somewhere on the forum if you dig up, you'll find that overtime PLD's CD is still slightly better than WAR. PLD is just as capable to tank turn 5 as WAR. Many people have done so unless you're spewing this because your OT is also a PLD then well, it's your setup that is the problem.
Inner Beast cannot be kept up perpetually (never ending). It lasts only 6 seconds and takes 5 Wrath stacks to use. In the best case scenarios, it'll still be down a couple seconds. Storm's Path can be kept up 100% but again, a WAR off-tank can keep it up just as good AND Storm's Eye. If you're refusing to use WAR+PLD, well it's your problem since that is supposed to be better than WAR+WAR and PLD+PLD.
Don't tell me about the long casting animation of Hallowed Ground like Holmgang doesn't have it. I play both too and the animation last equally as long. If you can time Holmgang, you can time Hallowed Ground and come out very far ahead since you're taking no damage compared to be left at 1 HP. Sure Bulwark increase block rate and not guaranteed mitigation but it's just like Featherfoot, slightly better in fact considering Featherfoot for WAR only increase dodge by 15% compared to Bulwark increasing block by 60%.

[whiskeybravo]

Sure Bulwark increase block rate and not guaranteed mitigation but it's just like Featherfoot, slightly better in fact considering Featherfoot for WAR only increase dodge by 15% compared to Bulwark increasing block by 60%.

Yea I kinda made the comparison to featherfoot in my head, it's only 15% but can be used twice as often as bulwark.. The main thing I see in FF's favor is a one or two dodged attacks can outweigh most all of the mitigation CDs. I've dodged several mountain busters with FF up so I'm rather fond of it (biased maybe? lol).. But I understand it's not reliable.

[therpgfanatic]

Man, why don't you see that your 20% Damage reduction is effectively 25% extra HP AND 25% extra healing.

What part about of our mitigation cooldowns only lasting a few seconds, while Warriors always have 3k+ more HP than Paladins, do you not understand?

[Lemon8or]

What part about of our mitigation cooldowns only lasting a few seconds, while Warriors always have 3k+ more HP than Paladins, do you not understand?

Because the extra HP is already made up by 20% Damage Reduction on Shield Oath. And for a Warrior with the same gears as a Paladin to "always" have 3k+ more HP, the Paladin needs 12k+ HP so your math is fail. Thrill of Battle only lasts 20 seconds and is one of the defensive Cooldowns so it doesn't count. Shield Oath doesn't last a few seconds, just like Defiance and it's better. You are trying to make PLD looks underpowered compared to WAR when it's not.

[whiskeybravo]

What part about of our mitigation cooldowns only lasting a few seconds, while Warriors always have 3k+ more HP than Paladins, do you not understand?

It's the same... Constant 20% DR (from Shield Oath) = Warrior constant 25% more HP and 20% healing boost. Per Nate's example:

PLD
7000 HP
4800 damage (6000 attack - 20% DR)
2200 HP / 31.42% HP remains
Cure for 1000 HP
3200 HP / 45.71% HP remains

WAR
8750 HP.
6000 damage
2750 HP / 31.42% HP remains
Cure for 1200 HP (1000 cure + 20%)
3950 HP / 45.14% HP remains


Shield oath is arguably better, because damage that is mitigated does NOT need to be healed. Though Wars have higher HP pool, that damage MUST be healed back.

[Dhex]

What part about of our mitigation cooldowns only lasting a few seconds, while Warriors always have 3k+ more HP than Paladins, do you not understand?

Paladins in Shield Oath take 20% less damage innately.

Warriors have 25% more HP but take full damage.

They equalize.

6000HP PLD Shield Oath -> 5000 DMG (-20% Damage) -> 4000DMG = 2000 HP left (33.33% HP Total remaining)

6000HP WAR +25% HP -> 7500 HP -> 5000DMG = 2500 HP left (33.33% Total HP remaining)

It's called eHP.


edit: Post above mine used more detailed numbers read that one.

[Synapse]

They equalize...

Tho the math looks logical on the paper, in real fight situation.. and In the long run the % reduction will win.

Even in a scenario where a mobs uses 2 attack with 1 sec in between....just enough to throw a single cure.


PLD:

Monster does 5000dmg.

PLD(6000HP) = remaining PLD(2000HP)

Healer cures for 3000hp > PLD(5000HP)

Monster Attacks 5000HP (Immediately following one cure).

PLD(5000HP) > PLD(1000HP).


WAR:

Monster does 5000dmg.

WAR(7500HP) = remaining WAR(2500HP)

Healer cures for 3000hp > WAR(5500HP)

Monster does 5000. (Immediately following one cure).

WAR(5500HP) > WAR(500HP)


Of course, i could have tweaked the numbers so the WAR would die and PLD would live with some HP.