AOE Toggle Needs to GO

[Sephr]

1. unlock the item you have targeted.
2. select the new target.
3. select your spell.
4. hit enter.
5. target the original mob.

Kinda seems like you're adding steps based on assumption to make it sound more complicated. Target lock is a stupid feature when you're fighting numerous enemies, so there's 1 step gone. In a good PC UI, it would go:

1. Click enemy
2. Hit spell to cast
3. Click new enemy and/or choose new spell

So that's 4 steps tops, 3 if you're not constantly switching enemies.

Sorry, it's less complicated for sure, which is why you don't see a FFXIV-style system in other games. FFXI is the only other game to use a similarly archaic controller-based system, and it's 9 years old.

as a mage in this game there is no dedicated healer. mages in this game in battle heal and buff party members, but they also use dot's or damage over time spells on the mob you are fighting as well as debuffs on the mob. if that mob is not targeted you do not see what is on the mob so you don't know what you need to cast on it. you target the mob you are fighting to see what spells are still "stuck" on the mob and what has come off and you need to recast.

That's one very specific situation, and it's probably not even going to be true for very long with the introduction of white mage for party play.

[Cutriss]

5. With the elimination of the toggle, more "Final Fantasy"-esque spells can return. IE: Cura/Curaga/Fira/Firaga

Not going to address the rest of your post since it's been handled ad nausea, but I wanted to point this out -

The definitions of those spells are highly variable. I don't mean to get all "WATS THE BEST FF GUYZ" but I liked the old "Cure III" system before FFVIII decided to change things for the sake of changing them (sound familiar?).

So, let's go with Cura/Curaga for the whole confusion thing first.

FFVIII - Cure II, Cure III
FFIX - Cure II, Cure III
FFX - Cure II, Cure III
FFXI - AOE charge-based Cure, AOE Cure II
FFXII - AOE Cure, Cure II
FFXIII - AOE Cure, Cure II (not that it matters since you need an eidolon to use Curaga)

Don't get me started on the changing of Protectra to Protectga from XI to XII.

I thought XI's naming scheme worked quite well myself, it'd have been nice if they stuck with it, and maybe instead of using Cura they had gone ahead with that Curasa concept name from FFXIII since it is a "special" cure.

Basically, my point is that they aren't really "FF-esque" unless by "FF-esque" you mean "Changes arbitrarily from version to version". So, in short, I wouldn't use that as a fallback point.

AOE discussions in another post.

[Dreadnought]

geez still complaining about a system that works perfectly fine. i see everyone stating that instead of selecting spell then selecting the target then hitting enter is any different from selecting the target than selecting spell and hitting enter. you want it changed because you are not able to play the class properly. let me break it down the easy way.

the way it is.

1. select your spell from your menu.
2. you select your target.
3. OPTIONAL change from aoe on to off if needed. hardly ever does it need to be changed. maybe once every few fights.
4. hit enter

they way you want it.

1. unlock the item you have targeted.
2. select the new target.
3. select your spell.
4. hit enter.
5. target the original mob.

you just changed 3-4 steps into 5 steps and say you want things easier. i'm sorry but if you are half decent at being a mage this system is very efficient to only have to hit 1 button to change from aoe on to aoe off instead of having twice the number of spells to deal with.

let's use a controller i use at being efficient.

main mob is targeted. when i cast a spell i hit x to select spell and scroll to the target i want to cast on(if it is that target i do not have to scroll) and hit x again. wow that is a massive 2 button presses in most cases unless i have to change target and the mob we are fighting is still targeted. if i need to change to aoe it is x to select spell, r1 to turn on/off aoe, and x again to cast spell. so at the most i have to use 3 button presses.

ok the proposed change on controller.

i have to deselect the mob. scroll to the target i want to cast on. scroll through double the amount of spells. x to select the spell. unlock off that target. scroll back to the main mob since as a mage i need to keep dot's and debuffs on it.

that is alot of unlocking off the main mob when i should be just using the subtargeting systems that are already in place and i can keep an eye on my other responsibilities. you claim to want to be more efficient, but you are ruinng your overall efficiency in the process of selecting and deselecting the same targets multiple times instead of using the system that is in place.



as a mage in this game there is no dedicated healer. mages in this game in battle heal and buff party members, but they also use dot's or damage over time spells on the mob you are fighting as well as debuffs on the mob. if that mob is not targeted you do not see what is on the mob so you don't know what you need to cast on it. you target the mob you are fighting to see what spells are still "stuck" on the mob and what has come off and you need to recast.

in a party in the party list you can see the buffs or status effects on your party members, but no information on the mob you are engaged with. this is the reason to use the sub targeting system so you can actually do your job.

OMG WE DONT WANT TO HIT ENTER, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT WE WANT TO EVER HIT ENTER AT ALL?
the system is not fine, the WHOLE POINT is to
switch your AOE on/off mode
select your target
hit the number corrosponding to your spell
....
and thats it, and when necessary change your AOE to either off or on again.

no hitting enter, no sub targets, those are two steps that are not necessary.

and as far as AOE goes in the first place, in FFXI you had both aga spells (aoe) and regular ones, the only difference is they gave us a thousand action bars VIA the crappy macro system which accomodated all the different types of spells. why cant they do that here? we have three bars, why not 41.6 of them??

[Cutriss]

So, we need a few options, and then everyone can be happy.

1. AOE toggle always displayed (for DOM classes)
2. AOE toggle only displayed during target selection

and

1. Remember AOE setting globally
2. Remember AOE setting for each ability
3. Remember AOE setting for each ability independently for each job

I'd love to have "AOE toggle during casting" but I expect that's not possible because when you start the cast, the game has to be notifying the server at that time whether it's AOE or not so that it can do damage and aggro calculations accordingly. I haven't played enough to know if there are any mobs that aggro during action charges (IE - aggro as soon as you start charging an action instead of when it hits), but if that capability exists, then toggle-during-casting wouldn't work.

I'm glad XI and XIV use subtargeting. It was something that always bothered me about WOW. I suppose maybe you might want an option to disable subtargeting for efficiency. I just don't really see it myself, but everyone's different.

Hell, Blizzard's so much in favor of efficiency they even introduced an option so that you could opt for keypresses to trigger actions on key-down instead of waiting for key-release.

[darkstarpoet1]

Kinda seems like you're adding steps based on assumption to make it sound more complicated. Target lock is a stupid feature when you're fighting numerous enemies, so there's 1 step gone. In a good PC UI, it would go:

1. Click enemy
2. Hit spell to cast
3. Click new enemy and/or choose new spell

So that's 4 steps tops, 3 if you're not constantly switching enemies.

Sorry, it's less complicated for sure, which is why you don't see a FFXIV-style system in other games. FFXI is the only other game to use a similarly archaic controller-based system, and it's 9 years old.



That's one very specific situation, and it's probably not even going to be true for very long with the introduction of white mage for party play.

no as long as this game is on easy mode there will never be room for a dedicated healer in a high level party. most people in the higer groups would just prefer to add another mage hybrid that can do multiple things instead of wasting space with one. get over the fact that the game is easy and this system is easy, but you can't figure out how to use it.

as far as the hitting enter anytime you cast a spell you will have to hit a button whether it is the 1 key or enter button so it is the same amount of key presses. sub targets are necessary if you want to actually be a good mage. you need to have the mob targeted to do your job and see what status effects it has on it so you know what you need to do on it.

OMG WE DONT WANT TO HIT ENTER, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT WE WANT TO EVER HIT ENTER AT ALL?
the system is not fine, the WHOLE POINT is to
switch your AOE on/off mode
select your target
hit the number corrosponding to your spell
....
and thats it, and when necessary change your AOE to either off or on again.

no hitting enter, no sub targets, those are two steps that are not necessary.

and as far as AOE goes in the first place, in FFXI you had both aga spells (aoe) and regular ones, the only difference is they gave us a thousand action bars VIA the crappy macro system which accomodated all the different types of spells. why cant they do that here? we have three bars, why not 41.6 of them??

no the system is fine. it is the quality of some of the people that cannot figure out the system and do their jobs that is the issue. i've been sitting here reading all day of how people cannot do their job and aoe mobs when they meant to single hit them. that is because they messed up not because the system messed up. if it were you select aoe off and it casts on or if you used subtarget and it hit something else that would be an issue with the system. to say you meant single but forgot you had aoe on is user error not the game design.

can you explain how you plan to hit the number corresponding to a spell on a game that is being built for a controller? remember this game is being built with the ps3 core audience as it's main target. it may be a good idea to go out and spend 10$ to get a usb controller as it is much much easier to use than the keyboard and mouse. they are not going to change the system that will make things more inconvenient on the ps3 players. they are the only thing that will keep this game going so everything is being put into making it a success.

[Shika]

As a Mage main (50THM) I personally really don't see the huge issue with this.
I have all relevant spells macro'd with /aoe on and /aoe off as appropriate. If I have to use an offensive spell that I would usually have set as single target then I simply select my /aoe on version for it (e.g. I have some nuking spells and Sleep set to /aoe on and /aoe off)- this tends to cover all situations.

I haven't experienced terrible lag on the macros and other than there not being enough of them or enough lines within them, they work fine at the moment for spell casting in my opinion.

Select Mob/Ally > Select spell macro > Press Enter

If they took away the toggle on/off for AoE and introduced for example curaga, protectra etc as well as their single target counterparts then it wouldn't really make a difference in using the macros for casting.
They would have to give players a huge amount of action points in order to set them though, and the action bars would be 4 or 5 lines at rank 50- I have to say that I'm not particularly keen on this as there are still some times when I have to select non-macro'd spells/abilities that are not used as often from the bar and trying to find them quickly in battle would possibly be more difficult.

Just my opinion *waits to get shot down in flames*.

[Cutriss]

Just my opinion *waits to get shot down in flames*.

It's all valid, I don't use my macros for this as that space is mostly devoted to skill/equipment sets for all the classes, but I don't think it's overly burdensome to play a caster now. You just have to do it *well*. I survived perfectly fine in XI, and I'd like to see some of those same aspects repeated in XIV that I enjoyed in XI. I remember one day when I played without a controller and had no saved macros and did healing in Crawler's Nest for three hours manually typing out '/ma "Cure III" <p3>'. Frustrating as hell and frantic, but I made it work.

[darkstarpoet1]

As a Mage main (50THM) I personally really don't see the huge issue with this.
I have all relevant spells macro'd with /aoe on and /aoe off as appropriate. If I have to use an offensive spell that I would usually have set as single target then I simply select my /aoe on version for it (e.g. I have some nuking spells and Sleep set to /aoe on and /aoe off)- this tends to cover all situations.

I haven't experienced terrible lag on the macros and other than there not being enough of them or enough lines within them, they work fine at the moment for spell casting in my opinion.

Select Mob/Ally > Select spell macro > Press Enter

If they took away the toggle on/off for AoE and introduced for example curaga, protectra etc as well as their single target counterparts then it wouldn't really make a difference in using the macros for casting.
They would have to give players a huge amount of action points in order to set them though, and the action bars would be 4 or 5 lines at rank 50- I have to say that I'm not particularly keen on this as there are still some times when I have to select non-macro'd spells/abilities that are not used as often from the bar and trying to find them quickly in battle would possibly be more difficult.

Just my opinion *waits to get shot down in flames*.

i know exactly what you mean with my thm and con at 50 i have had no issues with it either. i'll be honest i rarely use macros, but they work well when i do use them. i have a few macros setup for certain types of mobs and for buffs, but if you learn your job and know what range the spells have you know when you need to turn aoe on and off. that 4 or 5 lines of spells would be horrible for me since i do rarely use macros and all it would do would be to force me to use them more, but their argument was macros are just work arounds for the problem. wouldn't this just make more of a system to be worked around? just like everything else so far i have taken the time to adjust and i would do that also if needed, but the way it is not is fine and doesn't need to be changed.

it's part of learning to play any new game to me though. i expect each game i play to be different. if i didn't then why would i have left the last one? the point is each game is different and people need to actually take the time to figure out how to use the system in place. if they don't want to learn the new system they should go back to their old game because they will never be happy. if the system was bad i'd agree because i can tell you there are alot of things about this game i pure hate, but this simple aoe toggle and sub targeting system is one of the only decent things that were used.

[Tiraelina]

First of all I don't care about how controllers function, I imagine alot of players that want improved KB/M support are the same way. Outside of controllers there isn't much need for target locking in the first place.

The issue that alot don't understand is that it's not intuitive or optimal to ever need to take your hand off the mouse to cast a spell let alone anything else. It's called Keyboard and Mouse for a reason. Trying clicking on your target to confirm a target to see how much of a pain in the rear it is.

Blizzard doesn't want the interface getting in the way of actually playing the game, something alot of developers downright fail at. I miss my 3 stack of bars with all of the buttons having ctrl/alt/shift bindings rather than clunky page switching. Every ability I could want 1 button press away.

[Sonic_the_Hedgehog]

This probably has already been said, but what if you could assign a skill to your action bar and when you select that skill a sub menu with the single target spell and AOE spell pops up, you select your skill, then your target and that's it!

Ex.
Conjurer learns Cure at level 4, Cure skill is assigned to action bar.
At level 12, Conjurer learns Curaga(with cast time 4 and recast time 10), now the cure skill has access to the normal cure and aoe cure.

Now all Cure spells wouldn't be grouped in this one cure skill, obviously when you level up you would replace Cure I with Cure II and so forth.